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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    People don't have the time nor the need to be part of a virtual community; so we see a decline in community. People just aren't investing in that anymore.
    People don't need grinds, they want to see the rewards quickly.
    People don't want to hang in the middle of the content, they want to clear it all before the next patch hits.

    These changes, I find logical, seeing the changes happening to our lives now.
    Except these changes ignore human psychology. While I could go on for pages and pages about the psychology behind requiring effort to receive reward, I'll explain it with 1 very very simple example. Ask yourself this question, once you have activated the cheat codes on a game, for how much longer does the game hold your interest?

  2. #42
    Well sure, its going to be a crash of generations when the game has been out for 8 years and many players(like me) has been around since classic. Keep in mind that the whole gaming community has changed alot during the past 10 years. Hell, 8-10 years ago most people did not play mmos at all. Back then mmos was looked upon something "nerds" did and not everyone, like alot of people has always played FPS games(Like counter strike). 10 years ago almost all of my friends and guys I knew a little play counter strike or some other shooter(some more than other) and some played games like SC and Warcraft. I knew just a few people playing mmos. I also tried some mmos then and I hated it.

    When wow came me and many friends tested it and most of us loved it. Still, it was a stigma about mmo gamers back then. As the years went by it got more and more common spending time on mmos and not just on general games. It got streamlined and very popular. Millions of gamers came to check this "new" aspect of gaming.

    With the huge variation of games today with stellar graphics and gameplay its hard to compete. Having wow be as classic in todays gaming world would just not work.

    Sure, Blizzard has done theyre faults over the years with wow but you cant ignore the fact that they have really managed well in keeping the game "up to date". It's much more accesible for everyone playing the game, no matter what you want out of it and your playtime. The amount of things to do ingame is on alltime high right now. Heroics, scenarios, challenge modes, pet battles, LFR easy raiding, normal/Hc raiding, questing++. If you want challenge, its right there. If you dont want it for whatever reason(AND thats OK) you can still get nice gear and experience the lore.

    Personally, I feel that im a "older" gamer now. Back when I started I often had a "gogoogog" mentality and stuff like that but now im way more patient, calm and relaxed with it all. Im not stressed out if I miss a few days of raiding/dailys for rep. I dont mind long grinds anymore since I know i'll finish it sooner or later. I treasure the journey much more now than I did. I take my time enjoying the land, the quests, dungeons and raids. Now I even go back to the old world(s) and do some odd quests on my main for a long wanted goal: Loremaster title.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Badhairday View Post
    Yeah, let's make up things about everyone. That certainly leads to a good discussion. OP think this game has been losing players due to how much the game has changed. It changed because we're now 8 years past launch and gamers have a different mindset. OP knows this, as he said himself, but he doesn't approve of the new mindset. Nowhere did he say or imply that the game has become easier. It's not about grinding/farming anymore, something that used to define WoW, and other games of its genre. Did you even read his/her posts?
    In my opinion WoW lost players cause many of theses players entered in active life and no longer have enough time to play WoW, so they simply stopped playing WoW, secondly Cataclysm dissapointed many peoples (i don't know why i didn't played it), and then, many peoples simply got disgusted by the game's "appearance" (Mainly because of Pandas, i myself doubted about Mists of Pandaria cause of this, but i finally tried it and i think that i'll re-play wow at least until the next expansion).
    I can't imagine that some peoples appreciate farming, and access to dungeon which takes more time to get than it is needed to clean the concerned dungeon, thoses kind of things which were a really bad idea (in my opinion) (Exemple : The cape made from Onyxia's scales for BWL ... seriously, it doesn't bring anything to the gameplay or anything like this, you only had to wear it...), btw if they do, there is still plenty of farmable things, but they're less important, mostly vanity things.

    The actual game should please to everyone...

    Also i don't think that new players are young, simply cause the game's graphics are getting old, and cause teenagers now tend to prefer games with a great graphic quality, i heard many of them rejecting wow (or other games as Minecraft for exemple) cause of the graphics.
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  4. #44
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    In vanilla wow things were happening a lot slower than nowadays. I spent 4 months to make it to 13 rank. It finally happened in the middle of BWL raiding i think. I was viable tiil TBC, melting naxx and aq hardocre raiders's faces with high warlord greataxe. Another example - Invulnerable mail chest. 30 arcanite bars? That was a HUGE amount but after equipping that item u could do scary things with melee classes as a shaman. I had this chest too. And I was having fun cos the time I spent on that gear has totally paid off.
    What happens now: you level a character, u get him in heroics, lfrs, may be in a raid group. After a couple of months you are decked with gear. After another couple of months ur gear is crap and the cicle restarts. This plot becomes even more frustrating in pvp. For example I am levelling a priest now. Its my firs 1-90 run in a long time. I dont use heirlooms to feel the flavor of levelling again and I am having fun so far. But the fairy tale ends when I hit level cap. I am not a raider so it will be honor grind and then arena all the way. I will never be able to get an item that allows to dominate people. Hell I would spent a year in game for a "not broken I.W.I.N. button"!

    This comes from a hardcore diablo II player, hardcore vanilla-tbc-lk player, and now just an aging gamer with a lot of sadness in his heart.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuragalolz View Post
    In my opinion WoW lost players cause many of theses players entered in active life and no longer have enough time to play WoW, so they simply stopped playing WoW, secondly Cataclysm dissapointed many peoples (i don't know why i didn't played it), and then, many peoples simply got disgusted by the game's "appearance" (Mainly because of Pandas, i myself doubted about Mists of Pandaria cause of this, but i finally tried it and i think that i'll re-play wow at least until the next expansion).
    I can't imagine that some peoples appreciate farming, and access to dungeon which takes more time to get than it is needed to clean the concerned dungeon, thoses kind of things which were a really bad idea (in my opinion) (Exemple : The cape made from Onyxia's scales for BWL ... seriously, it doesn't bring anything to the gameplay or anything like this, you only had to wear it...), btw if they do, there is still plenty of farmable things, but they're less important, mostly vanity things.

    The actual game should please to everyone...
    There is still "grinding" in the game but now in form of dailys where you get cool rewards in the end. Even this sort of grind has caused alot of whining from people. I never minded it, but then again I never stressed it by doing EVERY faction everday like many of my guild mates did.

    Blizzard probably did a little mistake about hiding gear behind a tad to much rep, but I find it OK enough. I belong in a normal mode raiding guild and we had decent progress from start and I often raided as a healer that was a little behind on rep grind. It never really affected me. Good teamwork often thrumps those epics.

    The actual game does today give every kind of players something to do. Even now on my main I have alot to do. Since MoP launch I havent had much time for alts at all. In cata it was totally different. It was lvl to 85, do heroics wait for raid day. While I waited, level alt and do same thing.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuragalolz View Post
    In my opinion WoW lost players cause many of theses players entered in active life and no longer have enough time to play WoW, so they simply stopped playing WoW, secondly Cataclysm dissapointed many peoples (i don't know why i didn't played it), and then, many peoples simply got disgusted by the game's "appearance" (Mainly because of Pandas, i myself doubted about Mists of Pandaria cause of this, but i finally tried it and i think that i'll re-play wow at least until the next expansion).
    I can't imagine that some peoples appreciate farming, and access to dungeon which takes more time to get than it is needed to clean the concerned dungeon, thoses kind of things which were a really bad idea (in my opinion) (Exemple : The cape made from Onyxia's scales for BWL ... seriously, it doesn't bring anything to the gameplay or anything like this, you only had to wear it...), btw if they do, there is still plenty of farmable things, but they're less important, mostly vanity things.

    The actual game should please to everyone...

    Also i don't think that new players are young, simply cause the game's graphics are getting old, and cause teenagers now tend to prefer games with a great graphic quality, i heard many of them rejecting wow (or other games as Minecraft for exemple) cause of the graphics.
    I certainly agree with you, I think WoW lost players because they became more active in real life, as in more studies/jobs/marriage/etc. I don't agree with you on the rest, however. I love farming for things, and that's the reason I've had an active subscription for so many years. Sure, I like raiding and occasionally doing a BG, but that's 3-4 hours of playing for around 2 or 3 days of a week. The rest of the time I used to farm, and I know there are others like me. And indeed, there are still things to farm for, I loved looking around for the scrolls of lore to get my disc mount, for an example. I was sad to see so many useless things from arch, though. Some things were fun, like the transformation stuff, then they had a drum that when clicked, didn't even give off a drum-sound. Slowly getting off topic..

    Anyhow, I disagree with your statement "The actual game should please to everyone". It shouldn't. If they make an MMORPG they should stick to being an MMORPG, in my opinion. They're slowly going away from the RPG-part of this game. I know it's a business and they, just like everyone else, wants to make as much money as possible from it. But I think players (possibly myself included) thinks they're too much entitled. If I pick up an MMORPG I don't go and whine about leveling up takes too much time. It's like the people who whined about Diablo 3 having close no content because you just replay the same game on different difficulties, they're whining about the core of the game and should only blame themselves for not checking up on what kind of game it was before buying it. Now, I don't try to imply that leveling up is the biggest and most important part of WoW, as it never really were (I wish it was, tho). But grinding and progressively making your character stronger via new armor/weapons, skill points or levels, is what RPGs are all about. If people don't want that, they shouldn't be playing WoW.

    About young people and graphics, while I'm sure many rejects WoW because of its dated graphics, there are also many who do not mind. My little sister's friends are all about Minecraft (and some of them loves to watch me play WoW), even if both games have rather bad graphics. Minecraft's graphics are intended, but I personally find it off-putting. But that's very much besides the topic at hand.

    Terribly sorry if I came off as passive aggressive in my previous posts. I just find it so annoying when I see a rather well-written OP about the game's past without bashing nostalgia or being nostalgic, and the first reply is a one-liner including the word "retarded". :/
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by HungryHippo View Post
    Ecactly why would i want to go through 36 hours of lvling only to put 100+ hours of grinding for a piece of loot? dont want to waste all my free time in one game seriously people have lives
    That's the thing people nowadays just want the "loot".
    Ten years ago we played games because of the adventure and getting a equipment upgrade was just a little bonus.
    Items in this game and not just this game are way too inflated. You can get a upgrade which almost double the stats of the previous piece.

    Back in the days you would get a upgrade in a game and it was like "yay this piece is a little better than my old one" nowadays it's like "OOOOOOOMMMGGG HEROIC WEAPON OF UNLIMITED AWESOMENESS!!!!!!"

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuragalolz View Post
    I can't imagine that some peoples appreciate farming, and access to dungeon which takes more time to get than it is needed to clean the concerned dungeon, thoses kind of things which were a really bad idea (in my opinion) (Exemple : The cape made from Onyxia's scales for BWL ... seriously, it doesn't bring anything to the gameplay or anything like this, you only had to wear it...), btw if they do, there is still plenty of farmable things, but they're less important, mostly vanity things.

    The actual game should please to everyone....
    You are one of those who ruined the RP in MMORPG.

    Why wear a cape made from Onyxa's scales? Well, you're about to face the most badass dragons who spit fire that would burn you to ash in a second. That's why you need a cape made of a dragon broodmother's scales, to cloak yourself from the immense heat.

    This goes with everything. I remember a quest line in Duskwood, which required you to travel all the way to the Wetlands to collect some rare ingots from a wrecked ship, then get it forged by a dwarven blacksmith and finally use it against the evil necromancer. I did that quest line on every single alliance character and loved it.

    This is what I miss in WoW now. All those little things gone, the feeling of a long journey with friends, to complete something. Now, everything is made so stupid and easy so that anyone could solo it (the quests, ofc, not the dungeons nor raids... scenarios are close though). AND be done with it as quickly as possible.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by HungryHippo View Post
    Ecactly why would i want to go through 36 hours of lvling only to put 100+ hours of grinding for a piece of loot? dont want to waste all my free time in one game seriously people have lives
    If you don't want to spend time in progressing a character, then RPG, and in extension WoW as a MMORPG, is not your game and you should do something else.

    RPG is all about a character, with its advantages and disadvantages (a lot of people tend to forget a character should have disadvantages as well), which you progress by levelling and getting better gear. doing that takes time.
    if you don't want to, or can't spend time due to other factors, that is fine, but either progress the character at the speed that is available to you, or don't play at all.
    I have a real life too, and I can only wok on one or 2 reputations at a time. A lot of my guildies are exalted with the new faction, but i realise it will take me longer to get there, but i will, eventually.
    It is not like getting these reps have a time constraint on them (or at least not a short one) and that is something that people need to learn in a RPG: you have to do effort to reap the rewards and you don't have to get them right NOW.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

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  10. #50
    I wouldn't say it's really generational. People who came to WOW didn't come to it in Vanilla for a grind either, it was the alternative to grinding. Which is why only about 100-200 thousand people enjoyed MMORPGS until WOW.

    I'd say there are still that many people in any generation who truly enjoy a very complicated and long and very involving grindy game, but there are also about 45 times more people playing the game who don't. That's a few hundred thousand of out of 9-10 million or so.

    As I recall as of Cata, the average WOW player is still around 27.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    If you don't want to spend time in progressing a character, then RPG, and in extension WoW as a MMORPG, is not your game and you should do something else.

    RPG is all about a character, with its advantages and disadvantages (a lot of people tend to forget a character should have disadvantages as well), which you progress by levelling and getting better gear. doing that takes time.
    if you don't want to, or can't spend time due to other factors, that is fine, but either progress the character at the speed that is available to you, or don't play at all.
    I have a real life too, and I can only wok on one or 2 reputations at a time. A lot of my guildies are exalted with the new faction, but i realise it will take me longer to get there, but i will, eventually.
    It is not like getting these reps have a time constraint on them (or at least not a short one) and that is something that people need to learn in a RPG: you have to do effort to reap the rewards and you don't have to get them right NOW.
    I totally agree with you!

    The rep thing also.. People want to reach exalted so fast, it seems many cant handle having some patience. I am like you, I know that eventually i'll reach my goals, albeit it takes longer time than others. I guess to many dont treat it as a game and have fun with it, they just want to grind it out ASAP and move on even if they dont find it fun.
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  12. #52
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    I blame the grownups. Less children bashing please. Children only adept and take after the world around them.
    "The world is filled with lies! Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not commit adultary. These are all lies, deceptions. I don't want to be killed. I don't want to be victim of theft. That is why they use lies like justice and moral to protect their weak selves. The original truth is the survival of the fittest. One must devour it all, wether it be other humans, wealth, power or the world itself! All hail Britannia!" - Charles vi Britannia

  13. #53
    You shouldn't have to waste your time to have fun since not everyone has the time to spend. Also WoW is a game that you have always been able to pick up/put down easily but if you don't put in a good amount of time, like with any game, you won't be the "best".

  14. #54
    The Patient Ratsion's Avatar
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    League of Legends isn't "easy". just because it's free and has cartoony graphics doesen't make it easy :P

    I agree with you otherwise, though.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by HungryHippo View Post
    Ecactly why would i want to go through 36 hours of lvling only to put 100+ hours of grinding for a piece of loot? dont want to waste all my free time in one game seriously people have lives
    Maybe you shouldnt play an MMORPG then, and go back to COD.
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  16. #56
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    Why go through 36+ hours of mind numbing leveling, with no challenge, no excitement, when you can hop into CoD multiplayer on day 1?
    I believe you answered your own question here. Why play a game that doesn't feel like a game, but a boring job, when there are games much more fun?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 10:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Maybe you shouldnt play an MMORPG then, and go back to COD.
    your maybe they should change the face of MMORPG

  17. #57
    The Patient AnotherInternetOpinion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    And it's not just WoW - I'd go so far as to say it's all MMORPGs.

    Kids these days... just not into what they were in the past. The notion of "working for your fun" is just unreal to them.

    For multiplayer, they want games like League of Legends, Call of Duty, Halo - games they can pick up easy, and put down easy, with minimal investment.

    I think WoW's problem right now is generational - We, the MMO gamer generation, are getting old. We're graduating, getting married, having kids, kids growing up, etc.

    And there's no one replacing us. As we age and move on, the next generation just doesn't want to grind. Why pay $15/month on top of the standard game cost when you can play with your friends for just the price of the disc?

    Why go through 36+ hours of mind numbing leveling, with no challenge, no excitement, when you can hop into CoD multiplayer on day 1?

    While other genres are expanding to try to reach new people and markets, the MMO market is shrinking. Fewer and fewer people are willing to put forth the hours, dedication, and coordination required to "have fun."

    My take on WoW's decline - it's not just WoW. It's all MMOs. And it's no one's fault.
    You hit the nail on the head. Also, the kids "bought up" on the internet are so rude. Too much hidden identity is bad. Look at them. Good luck getting flamed lol. Totally agree though.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Badhairday View Post
    And here I thought grinding was what defined MMORPGs, or RPGs in general. With WoW making grinds take less and less time, it feels like we're slowly going back to the Arcade-era where you just popped in a coin, shot some guys, and quit again.
    And that's why I don't bother with MMORPGs anymore, I don't like doing a repetitive task that requires little to no skill only to get my character better whilst not learning how to play the game better itself. I want to play the game, not work at an assembly line.
    It isn't what defines RPGs in general, maybe some and JRPGs, and I do not bother with those for that exact reason.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Useful View Post
    In vanilla wow things were happening a lot slower than nowadays. I spent 4 months to make it to 13 rank. It finally happened in the middle of BWL raiding i think. I was viable tiil TBC, melting naxx and aq hardocre raiders's faces with high warlord greataxe. Another example - Invulnerable mail chest. 30 arcanite bars? That was a HUGE amount but after equipping that item u could do scary things with melee classes as a shaman. I had this chest too. And I was having fun cos the time I spent on that gear has totally paid off.
    What happens now: you level a character, u get him in heroics, lfrs, may be in a raid group. After a couple of months you are decked with gear. After another couple of months ur gear is crap and the cicle restarts. This plot becomes even more frustrating in pvp. For example I am levelling a priest now. Its my firs 1-90 run in a long time. I dont use heirlooms to feel the flavor of levelling again and I am having fun so far. But the fairy tale ends when I hit level cap. I am not a raider so it will be honor grind and then arena all the way. I will never be able to get an item that allows to dominate people. Hell I would spent a year in game for a "not broken I.W.I.N. button"!

    This comes from a hardcore diablo II player, hardcore vanilla-tbc-lk player, and now just an aging gamer with a lot of sadness in his heart.
    Agree, the same happened to me. Back in Vanilla I also got the pvp gear and used it during the entire game! It was so fun when I got it, I felt like a relief, I could run raids with my guild not worried about the gear. I grew attached to my character, I explored other things in the game, I ran raids for fun.

    Today, every 6 months my gear is replaced and I have to grind all over again. I get my (honor) set knowing that I'll have to replace it in the future. I stockpile honor (and justice) and quests that reward honor (and justice), preparing for the next season. It's not fun. You don't have that "I'm awesome" feeling anymore, everything is so artificial now. It's not fun.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Toobad View Post
    You are one of those who ruined the RP in MMORPG.

    Why wear a cape made from Onyxa's scales? Well, you're about to face the most badass dragons who spit fire that would burn you to ash in a second. That's why you need a cape made of a dragon broodmother's scales, to cloak yourself from the immense heat.

    This goes with everything. I remember a quest line in Duskwood, which required you to travel all the way to the Wetlands to collect some rare ingots from a wrecked ship, then get it forged by a dwarven blacksmith and finally use it against the evil necromancer. I did that quest line on every single alliance character and loved it.

    This is what I miss in WoW now. All those little things gone, the feeling of a long journey with friends, to complete something. Now, everything is made so stupid and easy so that anyone could solo it (the quests, ofc, not the dungeons nor raids... scenarios are close though). AND be done with it as quickly as possible.
    Like it or not that is the WoW of today and apparantly what the majority wants, this is the group Blizzard hopes to appeal to in order to stay profitable and relevant and it would learn well to do so. I for one am glad this is the case, grinding is retarded and not really compelling gameplay. Glad it's being toned down and will eventually be just a side thing in the MMOs of the future and indeed in WoW itself it seems.

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