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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    And it's not just WoW - I'd go so far as to say it's all MMORPGs.

    Kids these days... just not into what they were in the past. The notion of "working for your fun" is just unreal to them.
    I think you're close, but you're not quite there yet.

    It's not "working for your fun" that's unreal to these people. They simply grew up with more technology than you or me, they adapted to the faster lifestyle and changes happening around them. Simply put, they are used to things going a lot faster than you or me. This trend will very likely continue.

    Just like 'our' generation adapts quicker and is used to faster changes and faster games than older generations (just try to explain facebook or a tablet to your parents or grandparents), the same is true for us compared to even younger generations. They adapt quicker and are used to faster games than us. It's a continuing trend.

    In that sense, it's totally normal for Blizzard to create the possibility to queue for dungeons, raids or battlegrounds from anywhere. Sure, it may have been more immersive to go to the location first before you could start, but that's outdated for the current generation. They want to pick up and play, they want things to be fast paced. If things are going too slow, these people will simply find their joy somewhere else. Some of us may not like it, but it's a smart move on Blizzard's part.

    So yeah, you're right that it's a generation problem. But not because the current generation doesn't know what working for fun means, they just want to see results faster. Heck, everything needs to be faster.

  2. #122
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    I think it has less to do with the gamers themselves but the culture around video games. For those of us who were born in the early 80s and earlier, video games were truly a niche market in some respects. I wouldn't blithely call it "geek chic" just to put a label on it, but the people who played video games in those times were nerds. Outright nerd. I started playing online text-based MUDs loosely based off of DnD ideas (AS - DS + AvD + bonuses +d100) in the late 80s on services like Prodigy and CompuServe, and I'll admit I was a huge basement dwelling nerd. And I was made fun of for it, and persecution makes a small community even more tight-knit.

    Even in the 90s, as games expanded, you started to see a sharp divide between the people who played, IE, Zelda or Final Fantasy, and the people who played your "starter games" like Mario and Sonic, and the sports gamers who played Madden and NBA Jam. Interestingly, you see that culture clash between the companies that make those games - Square Enix makes small-ish, niche titles and are generally nerd-friendly, Nintendo still makes what I'd consider "starter" or "party" games to play with friends, and EA (who made Madden and NHLPA etc) became the megolith of casual gamers (and, I'd argue, a very unfriendly nerd-gamer attitude).

    So, for those of us nerds who grew up in these small, insular communities of online gamers (Oh, AOL in the mid-90s, how I miss you), WoW and the 2000s came as a shock. It simultaneously validated our love of online-RPGS, but became so popular (and pop cultural) and widespread that our community now encompasses people we never would have thought to have something in common with. I get spammed with more Farmville/Angry Birds/Mafia nonsense from people who made fun of me for playing video games growing up than from other gamers I know (because the gamers I knew growing up don't generally play those games). Hell, there's a former football player from my high school, a 300 lb offensive lineman, who sends me more Farmville stuff than anyone I know.

    It's all part of the growing pains of being an accepted, popular form of media entertainment, I bet theatre people were pissed too when them goldurned movin' pictures started showing up and EVERYONE started showing up at the cinema.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Badhairday View Post
    This game is +12, and afaik Blizzard never aimed at making this game for people in their 30s with families to support. And OP was talking about kids these days, he did mention that older people didn't have the time to play anymore.
    I think you misunderstand the rating system completely. When it says 12+ (or, more accurately, anyone at least age 12 to any age older than that), it doesn't mean it is designed for kids. It means exactly what it says: "ANYONE 12 years AND older." You're looking at the number and thinking that is the target audience when it is a simple statement indicating that is NOT good for anyone under the age of 12.

    Your misconception or misinterpretation of the rating system is coloring your belief as to the target audience and thus any assumption related to that is also equally flawed. Try this again. The game is designed for folks who aren't 0 years to 11 years old. It is designed for everyone else older than that. Including the grandmother who raids with her guild frequently and leads raids. (Yes, there was a spotlight article about this some time ago.)
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angosia View Post
    I think you misunderstand the rating system completely. When it says 12+ (or, more accurately, anyone at least age 12 to any age older than that), it doesn't mean it is designed for kids. It means exactly what it says: "ANYONE 12 years AND older." You're looking at the number and thinking that is the target audience when it is a simple statement indicating that is NOT good for anyone under the age of 12.

    Your misconception or misinterpretation of the rating system is coloring your belief as to the target audience and thus any assumption related to that is also equally flawed. Try this again. The game is designed for folks who aren't 0 years to 11 years old. It is designed for everyone else older than that. Including the grandmother who raids with her guild frequently and leads raids. (Yes, there was a spotlight article about this some time ago.)
    I realize I looked at the age rating wrongly, but, every company has a target audience. You don't make a time-consuming game and aim it for the people with the least amount of free time. That's stupid, and Blizzard isn't stupid. They have gone more casual, as in there are more things available that requires less time, but as I said each company has a target audience, and I personally believe that they still target youths more so than someone with a fulltime job and a family to support. It's great that those kinds of people manage to play, but I don't believe they're the main target that Blizzard aimed for with World of Warcraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anakso View Post
    notice the lack of ass groping and milk

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I don't think it's about generations. I think it's about casual gamers. Not everyone want to spend hours each day on a game.
    hours?

    people don't wanna put 30 mins in to get something they want anymore
    most of today's gamers don't like playing games but they do it anyway and they're the majority. that's why games are terrified to innovate

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by blackyfrost View Post
    most of today's gamers don't like playing games but they do it anyway and they're the majority.
    Really? I've never heard that before. Where did you hear that from?

  7. #127
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    I dont think it is the new people coming into the game that are causing it to become more casual, but rather the veterans. Take me for instance I was a Senior in High school when the game was released. Obviously had a lot of time on my hands then, and then on to college had even more free time for 4 years. Then I graduated and the real world hit me house, vehicles, wife, kid. Now I have very little time to play and its getting more and more difficult to commit to even 2 raid nights a week. I prefer LFR so I can raid on my own schedule.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Really? I've never heard that before. Where did you hear that from?
    the shit i remember most from the past 10 years of gaming were the things that felt like a pain in the ass at the time. the run from MH to SFK at level 19 while level 30 raptors ate my face between gankings. that shit was great.

    read this thread "we don't want to spend hours"....then you're not someone who loves playing games. if it's not nearly an addiction for you that you have to manage, you're a casual at best.

    when you play sports in HS, or even if you're in the band, a good chunk of your life is devoted to getting better at it. gaming tuned for that dedication doesn't appeal to enough people to make big companies happy, so they tone it way the fuck down so that they can play 10 mins here, 30 there, etc

    blizz has been trying to do that and still can't keep everyone happy, which is why they're giving out free weeks of gametime to old accounts like they're oprah
    why do you think "facebook games" are so popular now?

    why do you think information that is easily found on tooltips is never learned by most folks in a game like wow? they don't care. it's a time killer. you should fall WAY behind if you don't commit to something, just like everything else in life

    games used to be about challenge and now they're about reward, and that means falling behind = no reward = no point in paying for your game

    so companies like blizz decided to give them that reward anyway to keep them playing.
    it's the journey vs the destination and when the destination is the point of what you're doing, you don't enjoy yourself as much
    Last edited by blackyfrost; 2013-03-20 at 04:58 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Badhairday View Post
    I realize I looked at the age rating wrongly, but, every company has a target audience. You don't make a time-consuming game and aim it for the people with the least amount of free time. That's stupid, and Blizzard isn't stupid. They have gone more casual, as in there are more things available that requires less time, but as I said each company has a target audience, and I personally believe that they still target youths more so than someone with a fulltime job and a family to support. It's great that those kinds of people manage to play, but I don't believe they're the main target that Blizzard aimed for with World of Warcraft.
    You still have a few misconceptions there. Blizzard isn't targeting a specific subset of the 12+ older crowd. Do you recall the posts when Blizzard explained the logic for why they added pet battles? If not, I will refresh your memory.

    They added pet battles to appeal to the younger audience. That doesn't mean they're catering to the younger audience. They're simply giving it to them to provide content interesting to that segment. The lion's share of the rest of the content tends to appeal to a significantly older audience. Sure, people of all ages will get something from a little bit of everything in the game.

    They're trying to be all things to all of the people in their audience. As with the case of Jack of All Trades, you cannot be a master in any. Thus, they are not. Each segment thinks their portion of interest is underdeveloped (and probably is to some degree). But, your assumptions are faulty because you are making them from a singular view of a singular concept. You have to look at the much bigger picture and realize it isn't one set of people they're trying to appeal to unless that subset is everyone who is 12 and older.
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Badhairday View Post
    I realize I looked at the age rating wrongly, but, every company has a target audience. You don't make a time-consuming game and aim it for the people with the least amount of free time. That's stupid, and Blizzard isn't stupid. They have gone more casual, as in there are more things available that requires less time, but as I said each company has a target audience, and I personally believe that they still target youths more so than someone with a fulltime job and a family to support. It's great that those kinds of people manage to play, but I don't believe they're the main target that Blizzard aimed for with World of Warcraft.
    blizz wanted to top EQ's 50-100k subs. it blew their mind how fast wow grew so they wanted more and more and more until they peaked at 12,000,000 and it's been downhill since then, not because of their target audience but because there simply aren't that many people who want to commit to wow, and making an MMO you don't have to commit to is just against everything an MMO stands for

    you don't need 10,000,000 subs to survive, 1,000,000 subs is still enough to pay the bills and make some money and there ARE 1,000,000 who want old school MMOs

    but wow has put the genre in a rut with companies trying to steal that perceived market that really doesn't exist. wow was an anomaly and companies are finally figuring that out. you aim for 1-2,000,000 subs and produce a quality game, you'll make money. you pull an swtor thinking the name will sell itself and you will fail

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    Yeah, really. I'm not saying CoD is a great game, or a great line of games even - I'm more saying that it's that experience that kids want.

    They don't want to put forth "investment" into their games.
    They don't want to have to pay $15/month for a game, or invest hours just to get something done, or have to coordinate "times" to play with friends that aren't just 15-20 minute windows.

    They want to just jump in, start playing, immediately have fun, and occasionally play with friends.
    I play CoD and WoW and SP RPGs and SP shooters. CoD does require time investment. At least 15 hours till you learn how the game feels and how movement is, and how generally the guns react and of course learn the maps. Then you have to level up to unlock weapons and attachments. Then you have to complete challenges to get skins and emblems. I've been working almost 15 hours on the gun SMR to unlock all the skins now, while I work on scopes (can do this together).
    I do not do prestige though.

    I play CoD for what it is and I play WoW for what it is, and I like that in WoW I can now log on for an hour and still get progress, even if it's just a little.

  12. #132
    This is a bunch of bunk. I am 30 years old. I grew up through the video game "golden age", and frankly I can't stand all the difficulty whining. I have, and always will, play games for fun. Sometimes that fun comes through challenge (screw you battle toads), other times that fun comes through just relaxing with an easy game. WoW is one of those games that needs to have both, but focusing more on accessibility rather then challenge. If you want challenge, do heroic raids. Let everyone else enjoy the faceroll.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuragalolz View Post
    Once, wow was tending to reward investment, now, it tend to reward skill
    Get a load of this guy

  14. #134
    So you're surprised that "kids" tend to prefer games that are all about equality and skill ? ( see lol, dota, cs, sc2 )? Why the fuck would grinding for items/levels or w/e, so you can beat other players/npc/bragging, be a good idea? Oh, and they prefer to play games that don't require more than paying once for them? SUCH INSOLENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Good change, imo.
    Last edited by almosthuman; 2013-03-20 at 06:05 PM.

  15. #135
    The game has actually got a lot more complexity rotations are harder and content is hard. Every boss in vanilla that has been brought back has been downed in a couple of hours. Why? because they were never hard just took stupid amounts of time finding 40 people, getting them all attuned, getting flask and pots, getting resist gear, bugs like c'thun pretty much 100 things outside of the raid content.etc Good players clear the content before nerf bad ones don't that's what separates a bad player from a good player now. People like reckful, limity, and norbok can hit 2.4k-2.6k in a day. Good players get rewarded for be able to adapt quickly rather then how much time they spend at a computer chair.
    Last edited by worsthitmanNa; 2013-03-20 at 07:53 PM.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  16. #136
    I think the reason why many "casual gamers" think that EVE Online and World of Warcraft are fails is because they think everything has to be about immdeiete, skillful action, where only the "best of the best" win. The hard reality is that games like CoD aren't really about skill; any body can just pick up a controller, mash a few buttons, a say"I'm totally awesome! I just head shotted a guy two miles away with a pistol! I'm boss!". CoD really isn't realistic; it appeals because there is practically not much skill involved, players simply walk around and point their reticle at somebody and then press R1. In reality, learning to actually shoot a rifle at a target several hundred meters away takes months, if not years to master. Then, when the same gamer plays Arma or Red Orchestra, they say it sucks, because it is so hard to aim and hit somebody. It's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the player.

    In the same way, "casual players" think that highly tactical games where player development is critically important, such as EVE Online and World of Warcraft suck because they aren't used to D&D inspired games; you can't just pick up a sword, go out and smash a dragon's head a few times right from the start and declare yourself "awesome". No, D&D inspired RPGs are about the player's long, extensive journey from a level 1 newbie who kills rats to a level 100 General with thirty different abilities, who must work together and use those abilities to take down raid bosses. Many casual players just don't get that going from zero to hero isn't an overnight thing - you must learn how the game works and how your abilities work, experiment with builds, and actually invest time to play to develop your character. So when players say that EVE Online is too complicated, WoW is just plain boring, or Red Orchestra is way to difficult, it's because they have spent to much time thinking that games are about immediate fun. The problem is that with games like CoD, your enjoyment of the game doesn't grow when you play hundreds of hours playing it, because there is almost no skill gap (other than being able to point a large reticle at some guy's gut faster then he can). Currently, the thinking is that unless you can feel legendary within the first two minutes, then the game sucks.

    Many of us grew up playing games like Zelda and Final Fantasy, where skill comes from actually playing the game and learning about how each ability works. It was the challenge that made it really interesting, and learning how to overcome that challenge. That's what made extensively complicated RPGs so fun: because at first you knew nothing, but then you gradually became better, started defeating harder enemies, learn new skills, and then when you reached high levels you truly felt "epic" because you had twenty or thirty different abilities, and you knew how each of them worked and when to use them. You knew how things like pulling and aggro worked, and that a good team working together towards a common goal is what truly made the game fun. I think that if casual players actually spent more time trying those RPGs, they would begin to understand why it was more fun.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I don't think it's about generations. I think it's about casual gamers. Not everyone want to spend hours each day on a game.
    Indeed, it has absolutely nothing to do with generations. This is a myth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Then the [MMORPG] genre started attracting more players. These players wanted more of a "game" and less of a "world" [...]

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    Many of us grew up playing games like Zelda and Final Fantasy, where skill comes from actually playing the game and learning about how each ability works. It was the challenge that made it really interesting, and learning how to overcome that challenge. That's what made extensively complicated RPGs so fun: because at first you knew nothing, but then you gradually became better, started defeating harder enemies, learn new skills, and then when you reached high levels you truly felt "epic" because you had twenty or thirty different abilities, and you knew how each of them worked and when to use them. You knew how things like pulling and aggro worked, and that a good team working together towards a common goal is what truly made the game fun. I think that if casual players actually spent more time trying those RPGs, they would begin to understand why it was more fun.
    I also grew up playing those games, and frankly, none of what you said was why those games were fun.

    Zelda was fun because it was a single player adventurer, one in which carried interesting puzzles. It was not very challenging at all, once you learned how to sword weave. Same for all those that came after it. I don't remember Ocarina of Time for soul splitting challenge and difficulty, but instead for cool puzzles, an engaging story, and great visuals. The only challenging thing I would say was the Water Temple, and frankly, we all know how much gamers hate that place.

    Final Fantasy was similar. We enjoyed them because of the stories they told more then anything. The fact they were solo and didn't rely on others was another plus.

    Think of Diablo 2. Was that game difficult? Not really. It had moments of terror, but what really made people enjoy it was the ability to magically obliterate a room full of enemies by spamming cool looking abilities or spells, all the while watching Mephisto pops his loot bag every time he died.

    "Casual players" are not going to just play old games and have an epiphany that old games are more fun with challenge, because "casual players" are not looking for the same thing in games that you are.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by blackyfrost View Post
    games used to be about challenge and now they're about reward, and that means falling behind = no reward = no point in paying for your game

    so companies like blizz decided to give them that reward anyway to keep them playing.
    it's the journey vs the destination and when the destination is the point of what you're doing, you don't enjoy yourself as much
    Computer games were not all created for challenge or to be like a sport. Many were created as time filling entertainment with eye candy. Kind of like watching TV, except you have some level of interaction.

    I think you may be taking computer games a bit too seriously if you think that every single computer game needs to be a challenge for it to be worth development time. You should just find the one that is right for your playstyle (which apparently is one that really challenges people). But talking down about things that are not your subjective style is kind of lame.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    See, the main issue with your theory is it doesnt account for the fact that there are VERY few MMO's in general that are made. Even fewer that are AAA, and even fewer that have the polish of a blizzard game.
    Since Wrath there has been Aion, Rift, Guild Wars 2, Tera, Star Trek Online, TSW, and SWTOR. I'm sure I'm missing plenty more. Elder Scrolls online is just around the corner. These are just AAA games I can list off the top of my head. At this point every producer wants a cut of the MMO market and while it may not seem more saturated than other genres, you also have to remember that most people only play one or two of this genre, where a real FPS fan likely owns a copy of just about every major AAA shooter game on the market.

    While none of these games individually claimed nearly the numbers WoW has, all of them together offer a lot more competition than Everquest 2 ever did.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 05:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hitmannoob View Post
    The game has actually got a lot more complexity rotations are harder and content is hard. Every boss in vanilla that has been brought back has been downed in a couple of hours. Why? because they were never hard just took stupid amounts of time finding 40 people, getting them all attuned, getting flask and pots, getting resist gear, bugs like c'thun pretty much 100 things outside of the raid content.etc Good players clear the content before nerf bad ones don't that's what separates a bad player from a good player now. People like reckful, limity, and norbok can hit 2.4k-2.6k in a day. Good players get rewarded for be able to adapt quickly rather then how much time they spend at a computer chair.
    Unfortunately, there are a lot of players who miss when sitting in the chair got them further than most people. I raided with a hunter who you couldn't trust to do any of the mechanics right in Wrath (you didn't assign him much and just hoped he wasn't the target of random effects too much). He'd spend all his time reminiscing about his glory days when things were "hard" when his guild did Sunwell pre-nerf while he wiped our group over and over because he couldn't coordinate properly.

    I've done enough of Sunwell to know that not all the mechanics were a complete joke, but at the same time most of them were a gear check first and coordination check second. Of course, those were "when content was still challenging" for the players who can't seem to down any hard-modes now but "only because I never bothered because it's so lame!" *eyeroll*

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