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  1. #161
    Well, i infact think that classic mmos are a dying species. If tou take a look onto the mmo market, none of the big releases of the early past really had been as successfull as they liked to be. SWTOR was a desaster, even if it offered a unique leveling experience, for example.

    I think people today like to play very accessible games which dont want them invest time everyday. Gaming in general becomes more and more casual.
    Last edited by rym; 2013-03-24 at 01:58 AM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Nice that you follow in the footsteps of the great philosophers ""The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers."

    Attributed to Socrates or Plato...
    Only proves how wise they were.

  3. #163
    I've played wow since BC, was about 15 or 16 when BC first came out. Over time people grow up and move on, some people stay and continue to play wow alongside job/wife/husband, etc but 90% of the people I knew that I grew up playing wow with, well over 50 people, have quit and moved on to other things. I logged into mists of pandaria on launch night and only had 2 people left on a once hefty friends list. It seems the next generation and I'm sure the countless ones after us will prefer the pick up and go method that seems to be so popular in games right now, more reward for less time spent.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    But how many hours of the countless grind you spend in WoW are actually ENTERTAINING? I'd much rather play a game for 8 hours and have 8 hours of fun, than play a game for 200 hours and have 10 hours of fun.
    That answer will be different for everyone, won't it? So rather than playing a game that you only enjoy a small amount of time in, perhaps you're better off playing something else, rather than rallying to have this game changed to suit your specific needs.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  5. #165
    Forgive me, Its 5 am and I have not slept yet, so my point might get lost down the road here.

    The problem is that success is indicative of millions of units sold, of millions of concurrent subscribers, how many dozens of dlc will people buy for your product, and so on.

    Companies use to be sold on the idea of 100k players playing their game. The games cost the same, they had the same group of developers, probably paid a little less, commercials cost roughly the same to be aired on tv. And many game franchises and studios prospered, and some didnt, just the same as today.

    If you went to a little league, how many people would be happy that 30 kids and parents showed up to play/watch the game?
    If you went to a major league game, how many people would be happy that 30 players and 30 fans showed up to play/watch the game?

    Well, the obvious differences is that the kids are not paid sums of 5 million to play ball, thus increasing the need for more ticket sales. But if ALL baseball players were paid 100k a year, would that drive the overall cost/profit margin of running a game down? Yes, but it by todays standards it wouldnt change the size of the stadiums, because they will still push ticket profits.

    How does that translate to video games?

    Well, If wow had a concrete player base of 300k , it would still run at full steam as if 10 million had never happened. Would the game be different than now? Maybe, but vanilla wow was pretty incredible for its time, and its beginning player base wasnt nearly as many million as it is now. So who is to say that if it stayed in the same general direction company wise, that wow would be all that much different content wise than what we have now. Would the game be sustainable money wise? Certainly. Companies have had mmos run with far fewer subscribers for years before wow was even hinted at a release.

    But all these new mmos cave in or go free to play because they dont have enough sales / subscribers......

    Not really. They fail because their publishers / holders / etc. are basing the company on millions sold.

    Take EA for example, they dont feel that a game makes the bare minimum for success unless it reaches around a 2 million sales figure. They have actual contractual agreements based on this magical millions number. Other companies even have such high regard for metascore numbers, which have no indication of profits for a game, yet base their success and such on them. Now this magical number may waver depending on who you ask and what the game in question is; but for a publisher, you dont make "real money" unless the profit margins are high and you can tell your share holders those magical millions sold numbers that they also crave.

    I could go on and on about this, but I want to get back to how it affects the game in general.

    If you are designing a game to make millions of units sold, you are sacrificing the integrity of the game, in favor of making sales.
    This is a rather "duh" notion, but one that people dont really think about.

    If you love books on African beetles, you are not very likely to have 10 million other people who enthusiastically share your passion for it. So by being the best African Beetles book it can be, you are content that your user base is much smaller, and as such the integrity of information in said book is untarnished to make sales.

    Say you want to make a profit off African beetles books, now your concern is about making sales, rather than the book itself. As long as you can create a larger customer base, youll change things, like African to "Jungle" , to get less publicity about racism or misunderstanding of its origin. Maybe we add in a second beetle from a similar family, for a cross reference or quirky story anecdote. Say we change the font up a bit, making it easier on the eyes and more recognizable/modern, kids these days have dyslexia and adhd...so we have to do something for them right? Lets get rid of that old wood texture covering....oooh! mental note, kindle app.

    And sooner or later you have a very nice and interesting story on Jungle Creatures, with a cute drawing done by a little 2nd grader (My daughter!..shes so precious and smart!) .


    In order for blizzard to continue to keep those 10 million + subscribers , they need to keep thinking in regards to keeping interest of 9.7 million newer mmo players. Less than half of a million could be said to be the standard "old guys" players from back in the day ( Most mmos didnt peak higher than 300k ish players ) , and gamers in general were not in the millions and millions per game back before 2005 ish. Getting side tracked...

    Its safe to say that there is not a 10 million player chunk for every mmo or game out there. One would be hard pressed to say there are 4 million, or even 1 million for most. WoW does not have 10 million while Swtor has 10 million as well, even though that would be nice. But they could all have 300k players and be successful, by product of them ALL having 300k players and thus nobody having over a million to use as a "benchmark" , but it would allow for "niche" gaming, or unique games to be enjoyed for their uniqueness, rather than each game trying to absorb that 10 million player base from some other company into theirs.

    When one realizes they dont need millions and millions of sales like the person next to them, out of a finite pool of players to attract, they can keep with the idea of just making their product to represent their ideas and ideals, rather than the bottom line. In such, you get a possibly better product (doesnt guarantee it obviously), and one that trys to stay true with its roots, rather than trying to branch out to meet some over inflated number.

    A company can say all it wants about integrity and sticking true to their vision, but when you have 10 million customers to worry about , you start worrying heavily on those numbers.

    If blizzard was resolute in its stance of quality and developer vision of how the game is designed, they would stand tall if they lost 2 million players with a change in the game, or no change in the game, that kept the game in its true form. They still have 8 million players right? Who wouldnt be proud of that number.

    But then again, they could have had 10 million.

  6. #166
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    That answer will be different for everyone, won't it? So rather than playing a game that you only enjoy a small amount of time in, perhaps you're better off playing something else, rather than rallying to have this game changed to suit your specific needs.
    Why? I love this game when it's less grindy. I'm not trying to make anything changed, I'm merely voting with my wallet - and Blizzard is thankfully paying attention.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    And it's not just WoW - I'd go so far as to say it's all MMORPGs.

    Kids these days... just not into what they were in the past. The notion of "working for your fun" is just unreal to them.

    For multiplayer, they want games like League of Legends, Call of Duty, Halo - games they can pick up easy, and put down easy, with minimal investment.

    I think WoW's problem right now is generational - We, the MMO gamer generation, are getting old. We're graduating, getting married, having kids, kids growing up, etc.

    And there's no one replacing us. As we age and move on, the next generation just doesn't want to grind
    I'm an "older" player, I hate grinding, I find the idea of "working" in a videogame ridiculous and I don't like Moba games, Call of Duty or Halo.
    What now?

  8. #168
    Even 10 years ago many people wouldnt accept grind.
    Bots, paid lvling, account selling, rmt. Its all bussiness made on the fact that smart people will avoid the grind.

    The majority probably hasnt got the drive to invest into RTM with all the risks involved but they sure can avoid games that would otherwise force them to grind.
    Last edited by bt4; 2013-03-24 at 02:56 PM.

  9. #169
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Nice that you follow in the footsteps of the great philosophers ""The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers."
    And seeing how classical Greece (well, Athens) only lasted three generations in its pinnacle, they were quite right.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

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