Thread: Sub rogue PVP

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  1. #1

    Sub rogue PVP

    Hey guys. I was hoping some of you could give me some tips on how to be a better rogue. I took this video yesterday and a few more last week for this reason I've gotten lots of awesome feedback off reddit and the wow forums, but was hoping some of you here could give me some pointers! Link to video is below. thanks for reading.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJi_fZ_Isjw
    Last edited by vickus420; 2013-03-21 at 06:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Don't open with cheap shot on casters especially mages as they will only blink out of it, open with garrote instead and force a blink. Kindey after that for full duration.

    Also, get a better taste in music. Couldn't make it past 1:30

  3. #3
    Thanks for tip and taste in music is a matter of opinion silly! I was going to play some tupac and jedi mind tricks but I figured people liked techno/trance stuff more and I hate dubstep so : /

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 05:21 AM ----------

    Lmao is that sarcasm? I can't really tell. If not then good for you! I think it's good music as well.

    and you're right about mages blinking right away it's damn annoying.. I am doing arenas right now and I opened with a cheap shot and he just blinked and I was out of energy ;_; that's my main problem right now. I have a problem with opening I'm not sure what to do. Usually I premed garrote SnD then cheap shot but after that I'm out of energy and have to wait like 5 seconds before I can burst.


    So if anyone has some tips on openers I would like that very much.. I want to start uploading some 2v2. I know it's not serious but I sort of suck so it's a start and I don't want to fail as miserably as I am now. I mean I got up to 1450 but now I'm having major problems with shadow priests warlocks hunters and mages.
    Last edited by vickus420; 2013-03-20 at 05:25 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by vickus420 View Post
    Thanks for tip and taste in music is a matter of opinion silly! I was going to play some tupac and jedi mind tricks but I figured people liked techno/trance stuff more and I hate dubstep so : /

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 05:21 AM ----------

    Lmao is that sarcasm? I can't really tell. If not then good for you! I think it's good music as well.
    Deleted my comment because I didn't realise the first song was also from MLP. The second song is more clear about it because they didn't change as many things. This is off topic but anyway GL with your rogue.

  5. #5
    Thank you :] I'd like to think I'm getting better!

  6. #6
    You really need to use garrote as he can't blink out of it and if you build up enough pressure you either force him to immediatly blink afterwards or even block thus making killing the mage far easier. Rogue vs mage is always about who's spending his cool downs first.

    Same for other casters, if you use garrote you can later on kidney for the whole duration while with sanguinary vein you also get a nice debuff on them. And in terms of control it doesn't make much difference since they aren't going to do a whole lot of things while being silenced either.

  7. #7
    Brewmaster orangelemonrain's Avatar
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    Take a look at the sticky on the rogue forums here, i'll link it for you.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...n-introduction

    Just remember to premed>slice in the opener, more detail is in that thread though.

  8. #8
    Hmm you have a point.. I'm going to practice not using cheap shot so often right now. Once I get into the habit of something it's a bit harder for me to stop >.> but should I still open on DKs and warrios and hunters and such with garrote/cheap shot combo? or is this a bad idea. Because I do it all the time >.>

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 05:42 AM ----------

    I think my problem is using garrote>cheap shot and THEN SnD

  9. #9
    Brewmaster orangelemonrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vickus420 View Post
    Hmm you have a point.. I'm going to practice not using cheap shot so often right now. Once I get into the habit of something it's a bit harder for me to stop >.> but should I still open on DKs and warrios and hunters and such with garrote/cheap shot combo? or is this a bad idea. Because I do it all the time >.>

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 05:42 AM ----------

    I think my problem is using garrote>cheap shot and THEN SnD
    yeah slice right after you premed, if I remember correctly slice doesnt start subterfuge

  10. #10
    Mechagnome
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    You use premed, then slice and dice. SnD increases your energy regen, so it's important to keep it running. SnD and recuperate don't take you out of stealth. I tend to open on dks with garrote, as they are somewhat dependant on spells, after which I follow up with a stun. If you open with cheap shot (and don't have subterfuge - can't see your video atm), get rupture going for a 20% damage increase.

  11. #11
    At a glance I can see a number of issues with your armory

    1) Change the windsong enchant on your offhand to living steel weapon chain to decrease disarm effects by 50%. The additional windsong enchant is not worth it. Dancing steel would be the better enchant for your main hand as well but since it's expensive as balls, this is splitting hairs. (I can't afford it either.)

    2) Your hit is too low at 2.40%. It needs to be at 3%.

    3) +180 agility is the preferred enchant for your bracers. Mastery is a humble substitute only if you can't afford the agility one.

    4) Your choice in gems is...terrible. I'll elaborate:
    PvP Power > Agility > PvP Resilience (> Other secondary stats, which you appear to prioritize well enough so I'll skip these)

    You are gemming essentially nothing but PvP resilience at the opportunity cost of both agility and PvP Power that could be gained either from better gem choices, or socket bonuses. For example, in your chest piece you have placed a yellow 320 Resilience gem in the red socket, negating a 120 Resilience socket bonus. If you had placed an Assassin's Imperial Amethyst there instead, you would have gained both 80 agility + 160 PvP Power. Not only are these two stats better than resilience, but you've also minimized your resilience loss by gaining the socket bonus for setting a matching gem. You ultimately traded in 200 resilience for 80 agility and 160 PvP Power.

    That's a steal.
    5) Because of your gemming issues, your PvP power is incredibly underwhelming for your iLvl.

    You can take a look at my armory for reference. You'll notice right away I'm no elitist player; I am the dreaded "casual"...but take a gander at my PvP power and resilience.

    I'm a whopping 7.37% higher than you in PvP power despite your gear advantage. And what did I trade for that? A measly 3.5% resilience in comparison.

    ~8% additional damage is serious, serious business; 3.5% personal damage reduction is not. Keep in mind this 8% does not factor in the attack power you'll be getting from agility, so your true damage gains will likely be even higher.

    Re-gem. You will thank me.

    6) Despite all the bitching I just did, I'll tell you what resilience DOES beat: stamina.

    Switch your chest enchant to Super Resilience. Resilience translates into more "effective health" than raw stamina does to actual health. In this case 200 resilience wins over 300 stam.

    -----------------------

    Your talents are fine. But having looked at your glyphs...

    Glyph of Stealth should be replaced with Glyph of Blind since you did not spec into Dirty Tricks. Without it, your Blind is essentially useless. That's a BIG no-no.

    That's all I got from a quick glance at 4AM. I'm going to bed.
    Last edited by AwdBawl; 2013-03-20 at 08:22 AM.

  12. #12
    Don't use Garrote on Dwarfs, they have Ston Skin

  13. #13
    I'm regemming right now I'm to tired to read that all right now but I will when I get home from work. If you could look over my armory while I'm gone (if you're awake) I would appreciate it. I think I got it right.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AwdBawl View Post
    At a glance I can see a number of issues with your armory

    1) Change the windsong enchant on your offhand to living steel weapon chain to decrease disarm effects by 50%. The additional windsong enchant is not worth it. Dancing steel would be the better enchant for your main hand as well but since it's expensive as balls, this is splitting hairs. (I can't afford it either.)

    2) Your hit is too low at 2.40%. It needs to be at 3%.

    3) +180 agility is the preferred enchant for your bracers. Mastery is a humble substitute only if you can't afford the agility one.

    4) Your choice in gems is...terrible. I'll elaborate:


    5) Because of your gemming issues, your PvP power is incredibly underwhelming for your iLvl.

    You can take a look at my armory for reference. You'll notice right away I'm no elitist player; I am the dreaded "casual"...but take a gander at my PvP power and resilience.

    I'm a whopping 7.37% higher than you in PvP power despite your gear advantage. And what did I trade for that? A measly 3.5% resilience in comparison.

    ~8% additional damage is serious, serious business; 3.5% personal damage reduction is not. Keep in mind this 8% does not factor in the attack power you'll be getting from agility, so your true damage gains will likely be even higher.

    Re-gem. You will thank me.

    6) Despite all the bitching I just did, I'll tell you what resilience DOES beat: stamina.

    Switch your chest enchant to Super Resilience. Resilience translates into more "effective health" than raw stamina does to actual health. In this case 200 resilience wins over 300 stam.

    -----------------------

    Your talents are fine. But having looked at your glyphs...

    Glyph of Stealth should be replaced with Glyph of Blind since you did not spec into Dirty Tricks. Without it, your Blind is essentially useless. That's a BIG no-no.

    That's all I got from a quick glance at 4AM. I'm going to bed.
    I don't agree with this at all. I gem full resil. Try to keep myself around 68% resil. One thing I don't have a problem with is doing dmg, its dying when getting swapped or too much pressure on my when my healer takes a CC. Looking at almost every high rated player from Rogue to War, most of them seem to be using 100% yellow resil in every slot. So that is what I choose to do. As a Rogue, my dmg just isn't an issue.

  15. #15
    Hmm, I don' think he understands how resilience works. If you just look at the numbers it seems like 7% power is greater than 3.5% resilience, but that number is misleading.

    PvP power is always linear. So that 7% does exactly that, increase your damage by 7%.

    Resilience takes a little more thought though...

    Let's say you take a 100k hit with no resilience. If you have the base 40% then that becomes a 60k hit. Now, let's increase that by 3.5% to 43.5% res. Your 100k hit now becomes a 56.5k hit. That is a decrease in damage taken of 5.8% well over that 3.5% number increase. Now let's scale that up to max levels of resilience and let's say you have 65% res and you take that 100k hit. It is 35k now. Let's increase that again by 3.5% res making it a 31.5k hit for a decrease in damage of 10%!!!

    Resilience gets stronger the more of it you have.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwdBawl View Post
    5) Because of your gemming issues, your PvP power is incredibly underwhelming for your iLvl.
    ...
    I'm a whopping 7.37% higher than you in PvP power despite your gear advantage. And what did I trade for that? A measly 3.5% resilience in comparison.

    ~8% additional damage is serious, serious business; 3.5% personal damage reduction is not. Keep in mind this 8% does not factor in the attack power you'll be getting from agility, so your true damage gains will likely be even higher.

    Re-gem. You will thank me.
    The tooltip numbers can be misleading; resilience is actually a stronger stat than pvp power. A lot of rogues still go pvp power because they play bursty mongo comps where a small damage increase can be worth a larger defensive loss, but it's not simply that pvp power is better.

    Resilience
    Gemmed resil: 68.64% mitigation (i.e. you take 31.36% of raw damage)
    Gemmed power: 65.15% mitigation (i.e. you take 34.85% of raw damage)
    Therefore gemming resilience is actually a 10.04% increase in mitigation (3.5/34.85).

    PvP Power
    Gemmed resil: 44% damage increase (i.e. you do 144% of raw damage)
    Gemmed power: 51.37% damage increase (i.e. you do 151.37% of raw damage)
    Therefore gemming pvp power is actually a 5.12% increase in damage (7.37/144).

    I took your armory values and your reported differences for this. I didn't actually confirm with his armory but the point should be clear anyway.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    Hmm, I don' think he understands how resilience works.

    Resilience gets stronger the more of it you have.

    No.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6788219501#3

    Resilience is now linear. High amounts of resilience confers no additive (i.e. exponential) value per point.

    I will concede that stacking resilience is a viable option with full malevolent gear. Especially so if you have one or both T2 weapons fully upgraded.

    But as you replace each piece with Tyrannical armor, I'm of the personal opinion that stacking all those yellows loses its luster. You are free to disagree.
    ------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by asb View Post
    The tooltip numbers can be misleading; resilience is actually a stronger stat than pvp power. A lot of rogues still go pvp power because they play bursty mongo comps where a small damage increase can be worth a larger defensive loss, but it's not simply that pvp power is better.
    You are correct, but I feel I should give a reason for my suggestions. I am stressing PvP Power so much because the OP had made more than one thread in the rogue forums stressing their intent for (rated) BGs.

    In BGs I find enemy attention to be focused less on me specifically. That considered, I feel the resilience-stacking here is better suited for Arenas (outside of the burst comps you mention) where things are more personal and the annoying rogue is harder to ignore.
    Last edited by AwdBawl; 2013-03-20 at 04:51 PM. Reason: additional response

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Don't open with cheap shot on casters especially mages as they will only blink out of it, open with garrote instead and force a blink. Kindey after that for full duration.

    Also, get a better taste in music. Couldn't make it past 1:30
    That's funny, without reading comments I paused at 1:31 with the music ><

  19. #19
    I'm going to stick with the way I gemmed for now. You can see it in my armory. OH and as for that double post in the other forum, I don't know how I did it but I managed to post the same thing I posted an hour before that. I sent a message to the admin asking to delete the thread because i didn't know how so I just edited to something that would make sense with the title.

    armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...aximoth/simple


    Although I do want to do RBGs because I don't think I could get 2200 in 3s to raise my CQ cap :[ Now I just need to find someone that will take me on my server lol. Oh and I don't consider that bitching that's the kind of information I'm looking for here. Anymore opinions on stacking all resil versus what I did now?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 05:45 PM ----------

    While I appreciate you watching my video even if it's for only 1 minute, the least you could do is tell me how you think I handled the mage instead of telling me why you didn't watch it all you could post that on youtube if you like. lol. Maybe even recommend something I could play next time instead. Not trying to be rude or anything, I just don't want to spam this thread by straying off topic.
    Last edited by vickus420; 2013-03-20 at 06:59 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by AwdBawl View Post
    No.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6788219501#3

    Resilience is now linear. High amounts of resilience confers no additive (i.e. exponential) value per point.

    .
    I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying. The actual Blizzard quote

    We have indeed made a change to the formula for resilience. Currently in patch 5.1 resilience scales exponentially, in patch 5.2 it will scale linearly. What this means is that at higher ratings of resilience you will see little to no change in damage reduction, but at lower ratings it will go up
    What they are saying is that before as you got more resilience each point of resilience was worth more. The change they made was to make it scale linearly so that lower levels of resilience had the same benefits as super high levels. That is talking about effective resilience values per point of resilience. What we are pointing out with the damage reduction is independent of the value of resilience whether it scales linearly or not.

    If you have 40% res and you add 5% you actually are reducing damage taken by roughly 8%. If you have 70 resilience and you add 5% you reduce damage taken by almost 17%. The point they are making is that to amount of resilience needed to go from 70 to 75 will be much higher, but the reduction is still super strong. The reason is basically because the more resilience you have the less damage you take so when you reduce that damage by adding more resilience it is a larger percentage gain.

    So what you are quoting is them basically saying that they put a soft cap that will come sooner on gear because of how effectively resilience scales, by which I mean how much resilience it will take to get 1% reduction. That 1% though is still always going to be worth more the more resilience you have, thus resilience gets stronger the more of it you have.

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