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  1. #1

    Boost Our Hunter Please

    10 man guild having dps issues, I am tank and raid leader.

    We main swapped one of our guys to a hunter and need to bring him up to speed as lack of overall dps is holding back our progression (10 man normals) and the hunter and boomkin have the most room for improvement.

    Please offer suggestions:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...troud/advanced

    Jin'Rohk Kill:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...d/?s=557&e=835

    Horridon Kill:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=8139&e=8845

    Council wipe because Sul didn't die in time:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...=10280&e=10600

    So any hunter specific suggestions, gearing, gemming, reforging, cd usage, rotation are welcome.

    Last tier SV was aoe, bm was single target. What spec now for first few fights or general rule of thumb?

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    He should be the one coming and looking for advice. If he needs to improve then the first step is for him to want to improve. Having advice forced on him is not going to work.

    But at a glance it looks like he is just not pushing enough of his buttons.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    He should be the one coming and looking for advice. If he needs to improve then the first step is for him to want to improve. Having advice forced on him is not going to work.

    But at a glance it looks like he is just not pushing enough of his buttons.
    Have discussed this with him, he is open to advice, but has a life outside the game and doesn't live on forums (Like I do), thus why I am posting for him. He will be reading it.

    Thanks will tell him to push more buttons, that will solve everything. Anyone else?

    Edit: Added (Like I do) to clarify
    Last edited by Slak; 2013-03-20 at 07:51 PM.

  4. #4
    Disregarding Conjor's advice with a snippy comment is not really the way to go.. That guy knows his shit..

    Anyway.. Your hunter is below expertise cap (with like 0,1%), and too high on the hit, so damage lost from lack of expertise, and damage lost for wasting stats on too much hitrating.. Tell him to get the addon ReforgeLite.. It'll help him set up and reforge his gear to the most optimal.
    There the stat prio should be Hit/exp cap > Crit > Mastery > Haste.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Slak View Post
    but has a life outside the game and doesn't live on forums
    That... might come over really rude and in a way you probably didn't intend it to be.

    Anyway on to the more important stuff. Aside from the issue Conjor mentioned is he able to play non-Beast Mastery specs as well? Survival has a big advantage on multi-target fights and he should definitely be playing that on Council of Elders as well as several other fights. All he has to do is keep Serpent Sting on all targets while doing his normal rotation and he will soar above what he is doing at the moment.

    It seems like he is just standing around or overthinking what he should be doing too much. Normally Kill Command and my pet's melee attacks are very close together. For him, Kill Command is 10% below his pet's melee attacks. Long story short, he needs to press Kill Command as it comes off cooldown.

    The right talent also helps, Lynx Rush fell behind Murder of Crows once they changed the instant damage to a stacking bleed.

    EDIT:
    Oh and looking at his armory again, he could improve his reforging as well. There are plenty of tools to help with that on the internet, and you don't need to live on forums to make use of those. Wowreforge seems to be the most accurate at the moment.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-03-20 at 05:56 PM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frostfang, full ascended medium armor, versatile mighty infusions.

  6. #6
    Conjor's right, but let me expand. Then I have to get off the forums and back to my real life (yes, that's insulting OP... )

    On your Jin'rokh kill he could have about 45 or 46 Kill Commands - it's a 6 sec CD and the fight is 278 seconds (4'38") long. Divide 278/6 and you get 46. Fine, you might miss a couple getting into position in a puddle or stacking for Lightning Storm... Let's say that 40-42 is a good attainable number for a skilled but not top hunter. Your hunter did 20.

    That's what Conjor meant and frankly it's really easy for you or your hunter to do this level of analysis. Take any specials that have a CD and divide the CD length into the fight length. If the player is not doing 90%+ of that number, improve until they are. If people are missing that the spell is available, configure Weak Auras or some other addon to notify them that the spell is available. I did this for KC on that fight - go do it for other things like Bestial Wrath (1 min CD), etc.

    On COuncil he probably wants to be SV. He can be SV throughout if he doesn't want to switch specs but after he improves the basic mechanics he will want to carry Tomes and thinks about where to swap individual talents (Barrage vs GT in some cases, etc).

    PS: He looks pretty good at avoiding damage. If this is his first time in ToT he simply might be on that learning curve where he's getting comfortable with the timing of the fight phases. Also, on Jin'rokh, make sure he's in the puddles for the DPS boost.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-03-20 at 06:03 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Slak View Post
    Have discussed this with him, he is open to advice, but has a life outside the game and doesn't live on forums, thus why I am posting for him. He will be reading it.

    Thanks will tell him to push more buttons, that will solve everything. Anyone else?
    A top hunter is willing to offer advice and you dismiss it with an asshole comment added in there?

    Gtfo.

    if he aint willing to get his lazy ass on here, he aint willing to improve.
    All hes willing to do is have others do his research for him, and then be handed a cliff's notes version of it.

  8. #8
    Blademaster Canidomini's Avatar
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    On the Council kill, I don't see any specials being used (no Kill Command, Explosive Shot or Aimed, etc), nor any interrupts. What was he doing during that fight, exactly?

    Looking at your report, your rogue is also woefully under-performing. Assuming you're stacking 2 non-empowered bosses, even with Blade Flurry, he's pulling 25-30k less than our assassination rogue does on that fight, and he has a pretty impressive 507 ilvl (our has 496). It would seem that the hunter, boomkin and rogue should all be looking for advice regarding DPS.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Canidomini View Post
    On the Council kill, I don't see any specials being used (no Kill Command, Explosive Shot or Aimed, etc), nor any interrupts. What was he doing during that fight, exactly?
    You aren't looking at the right part there I guess, 30 Kill Commands were used. Kill Command is a attack that comes from your pet so you need to look at pet damage to find those
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frostfang, full ascended medium armor, versatile mighty infusions.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Slak View Post
    Have discussed this with him, he is open to advice, but has a life outside the game and doesn't live on forums, thus why I am posting for him. He will be reading it.
    Sorry but, really? that was uncalled for, and kind of childish.

  11. #11
    On Jin'Rohk, 4m38s Fight

    He didn't use Readiness.
    He is Herbalism, only used Lifeblood once. 2m CD, should of been able to use it 3 times.
    Don't see him use a potion at all on Jin'Rohk.
    One of this pets is spec'd into Tenacity, instead of Ferocity.

  12. #12
    Blademaster Canidomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    You aren't looking at the right part there I guess, 30 Kill Commands were used. Kill Command is a attack that comes from your pet so you need to look at pet damage to find those
    Oh, he's one of them BM types...

    Well, there's yer problem, Clark...

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    A top hunter is willing to offer advice and you dismiss it with an asshole comment added in there?
    Whether a top hunter or a bad one tells me to push more buttons, it doesn't help. What buttons? Maybe I am a tank and just don't get the dps thing. Clevins explanation made sense to me and is what i was looking for, same with Bovan.

    I have edited my living on forums post that offended everyone, it was in reference to myself not to all of you, never even thought it could across that way, so I apologize, ty Bovan for not assuming the worst .

    Will suggest going SV as well, I went through raidbots and we had discussed it, this seems to clinch it.

    Drairon ty as well, that is specific and useful.

    The rogue is running combat and may be trying too hard to interrupt as opposed to dps, will check into that as well, thanks.

    Finally he is using Reforgelite, but may be using default values, will check what stat prio he is using
    Last edited by Slak; 2013-03-20 at 07:54 PM. Reason: Edit Quote and typos

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slak View Post
    Whether a top hunter or a bad one tells me to push more buttons, it doesn't help. What buttons? Maybe I am a tank and just don't get the dps thing. Clevins explanation made sense to me and is what i was looking for, same with Bovan.
    I was not being sarcastic or trolling at any point when I said "He needs to push more buttons". That is literally the first, and most likely, the biggest problem. He is not pushing things like Kill Command enough, or Arcane Shot, or Cobra Shot. I don't have time to go a whole lot deeper than that. He is just not using his core damaging abilities enough. Or, if you prefer, he is sitting on potential GCDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slak View Post
    Finally he is using Reforgelite, but may be using default values, will check what stat prio he is using
    Reforge lite has it's issues. Even when properly configured it can give bogus results. For the novice, I would recommend using Mr Robot before reforge lite.

    I would recommend he look at some basic DPS guides. The ones from Preach over at the mikepreachwow youtube channel are fairly decent. Although I haven't watched all of his videos, he does a decent job of giving a good overview of mechanics for each class and spec.

    Here is one for BM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZSTOE87QM4
    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-03-20 at 08:04 PM.

  15. #15
    Slak -

    Make sure your hunter does the CD math I outlined. It's not something you can do if you're not familiar with a class but it's easy if you are.

    Spec-wise he should play what he's comfy with and good at but SV will really help on multitarget fights. It seems close enough to BM in single target fights that you can just live in SV for most raids.

    Stat/reforge-wise I've seen some funky figures from armory lately (it was saying I had 0 expertise when I have a bit over cap). If he's reforging with RF lite make sure he's constraining it to hit both the hit and expertise cap of 7.5%. It does this by default if you just load the template for any of the specs. After that he wants to go Crit>haste/mastery (i.e. for the most part haste and mastery are roughly equivalent). If he has RPPM trinkets etc I'd stack haste>mastery otherwise mastery>haste but it feels like they're close enough that it won't make a big difference to most of us.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 01:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post


    Reforge lite has it's issues. Even when properly configured it can give bogus results. For the novice, I would recommend using Mr Robot before reforge lite.
    I'll have to doublecheck this then. I've been hitting the calculate button a few times so it hones in on a solution but I'll need to check RF lite against MrRobot.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Slak -
    After that he wants to go Crit>haste/mastery (i.e. for the most part haste and mastery are roughly equivalent). [COLOR="red"]
    SV and BM have the same stat prio? Thought it was different last tier and feel lazy for asking this. As I noted we will have him try SV, our guild tends to lean too heavily on icy-veins, while i prefer referencing multiple points of view.

    And Conjor, I get it now, thanks. I see so much crap on forums from immature kids, I blew off your comment in spite of the impressive sig, since most people just seem to reply with "play better" which doesn't help, but lack of activity or using GCDs makes sense even to a tank =p

    Edit: Ok icy-veins says crit/haste/mastery for both specs so that should be what he is still doing, I see he is still forging into hit and expertise go gear may be low still, will check on it tonight. Just ran Mr. Robot and it seems a lot more user friendly than i used to be. I had given up on it when it told my pally that his BiS weapon was the pumpkin sword off the holiday event =p
    Last edited by Slak; 2013-03-20 at 08:20 PM.

  17. #17
    The hunter's armory shows he is using Arrowflight Medallion from the Shieldwall rep. He is not using this trinket to maximum potential, as was previously noted for Lifeblood. A simple fix (not the best) while he plays beast mastery would be to macro the Medallion and Lifeblood into Beastial Wrath. There are better trinkets than what he is using readily available. I would suggest the Shado-pan Assault trinket for 1750VP if he can. Bottle from Elegon and even a 476 Relic might be worth looking at as well (sim them).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Slak View Post
    SV and BM have the same stat prio? Thought it was different last tier and feel lazy for asking this. As I noted we will have him try SV, our guild tends to lean too heavily on icy-veins, while i prefer referencing multiple points of view.

    And Conjor, I get it now, thanks. I see so much crap on forums from immature kids, I blew off your comment in spite of the impressive sig, since most people just seem to reply with "play better" which doesn't help, but lack of activity or using GCDs makes sense even to a tank =p

    Edit: Ok icy-veins says crit/haste/mastery for both specs so that should be what he is still doing, I see he is still forging into hit and expertise go gear may be low still, will check on it tonight. Just ran Mr. Robot and it seems a lot more user friendly than i used to be. I had given up on it when it told my pally that his BiS weapon was the pumpkin sword off the holiday event =p
    Oh I don't play BM so I'm not up on the stat prio for it. I meant for SV. Some people stack haste over mastery in 5.1 it was reversed. It's not going to make a huge difference though and will be swamped by doing things like getting his spell usage right. I mean 20 more Kill Commands at an average hit of 80k per is another 1.6m damage on the Jin'rokh kill or about 5.7K more dps.

    BTW, Mr Robot gives very slightly different results for me as SV than RF Lite but it's a VERY small difference and is likely because they favor haste over mastery in their weightings.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-03-20 at 08:51 PM.

  19. #19
    Just want to say I had dps issues for ages because of a bad latency. Switched ISP and instantly became of the top 3 dps in the guild.
    "Druid must be boss, Hunter is just Drain-monkey.

    Hunter scatter this rogue.
    Hunter drain that priest.
    Hunter where is frost trap. Bad Hunter! No banana!
    Hunter where is flare? No flare, you get replaced by retarded warrior!"

    -Huainy

  20. #20
    it's crit > mastery > haste, until you get a few rppm items.. trinkets/tier pieces etc.. then go with the crit > haste > mastery.. For now he should prioritize mastery over haste as a lot of the fights have multiple targets.. (our dots aren't affected by haste).. Take A Murder of Crows instead of LR for BM.. He's way under exp cap as probably mentioned.. so use the tools mentioned above.. buy the shado pan assault vp trinket and replace the medallion.. And just replace herbalism with a crafting prof.. eng would be good or any other crafter.

    But yea to reiterate the initial point, all these things are fixes, but minor ones.. biggest change and boost to dps for him would be to maybe rehaul his UI so he can make sure to use his abilities on CD. Maybe set up tellmewhen or weakauras with his main abilities centered on the screen so he knows when they're off cd and immediately uses them..

    tell your moonkin to replace the hybrid gems in all his prismatic sockets to straight crit.. and haste is still better than mastery even after the breakpoint, so reforge accordingly.. dunnu why he's not using any tier pieces, unless he main swapped this tier or didn't raid at all last tier or something.. then it's fine.. His nature's grace uptime is abysmal.. Needs to manage his eclipses better.. On all the fights his discrepancy between the amount of shooting star procs he gets and the total starsurges he uses is too wide.. Granted on some cases the proc overwrites itself but you still need to minimize that by using it ASAP.. Maybe he's still under cata mindset of eclipse camping.. but he shouldn't do that unless there is a period of high sustained aoe potential.. like windlord.. then you'd camp solar and spam hurricane.. but other cases with multi target, like horridon and council, he should pop hurricane only when all adds are high hp and clumped up together.. with atleast 5+ targets.. with lower and mobile targets, start multi dotting and use starsurge on cd.. Also, only use Nature's Vigil (talent) on fights with temporary dmg modifiers like jinrokh.. all others (especially multi target) use Heart of the Wild.. It is better now.. NV got nerfed.

    I don't know what rotation he follows for the opener or when he refreshes dots etc.. His uptime on dots on horridon (multi target) was ~70%.. and ~92-94% on jinrokh (single target).. so uptime on horridon needs to go up for sure.. And it seems like he's prematurely clipping dots on jinrokh.. can't be certain.. but if he is, he probably is overwriting a more powerful dot with a weaker one.. which is a big dps loss.. needs to watch his procs/buffs etc with addons and refresh them only when he gets more buffs than the previous dot.. otherwise let it run it's duration and refresh at 1 second left.
    Last edited by Saoron; 2013-03-20 at 09:25 PM.

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