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  1. #1

    Holy Trinkets Batman!!!

    Looking to stir up some discussion (and hopefully some really awesome theory craft mathy stuff from you math guys out there) from pally's that healed t14 Heroics and are already into or about to start t15 Heroics. Specifically if anyone is capable of doing it, whats the mp5 values on the new trinkets compared to last tiers, are any of the weird shield proc healing trinkets this tier even good? Can someone model those trinkets and show what kind of throughput they will produce? What about the Lei Shin trinket? Normally the guys over at EJ have this stuff up and posted by now but I cant find anything definitive and really am concerned about the viability of these new trinkets compared to the Darkmoon trinket and the Tsulong trinket which is what I'm currently using. So far I can only see myself using the Horridon trinket and maybe the one off Lei Shin as well, just want someone to verify if they are actual upgrades mp5 and throughput wise as I've never been a fan of healing trinkets w/o intel + spirit proc or vice versa.

    P.S. Also on a side note if anyone can produce some math on t14 4 set vs t15 4 set in terms of raw throughput I've also really been debating if losing the completely awesome 4 sec holy shock is worth it. I heal 10 mans and I'm typically EF blanketing at least half the raid on fights with any significant raid damage, just wondering if I'm gonna take a big hit to HPS by breaking the 4 set and while I've seen strong opinions going both ways I haven't seen any actual math to back those opinions up whatsoever.

    Edit: After some further searching I found this post, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7978878568 , probably the best info I've found coming even remotely close to what I'm looking for, hopefully will be insightful for anyone else mulling over similar questions.
    Last edited by Pvpimpin; 2013-03-20 at 12:09 PM. Reason: found a super insightful post kinda along the lines of this thread

  2. #2
    The Patient
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    Trinket discussion is already taking place in this thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...t-In-Slot-List
    You might find it helpful. Can't comment on the T14 vs T15 though.

  3. #3
    This thread has now been re-opened exclusively for holy trinket discussion. With the complications of Holy Paladin trinkets and the difficulties with the current math/buffs to them mods have given their ok for a separate thread on Holy Paladin trinkets from http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...t-In-Slot-List.

    Currently from what I've read from the current discussion going on my personal picks for normal BiS are Horridon's Last Gasp and Lightning-Imbued Chalice. Its a shame they removed the item upgrader. H Will's Qin-xi's Polarizing Seal is still one of the best trinkets in the game even without the upgrade. If we could still upgrade it I think it would remain very effective all the way up to H trinket drops. With 5.3 we will be able to upgrade the Throne of Thunder trinkets and by then I think the new trinkets will obviously be much stronger(upgraded). .


    I think with how Disc healing works Holy Paladins might have the same BiS trinkets as Discipline Priests thought I still need to discuss it with my guilds Disc priests.

    As a side note, while I would normally put the time in to calculate the trinket values myself, there's quite a few posting such as http://shamannebula.wordpress.com/2013/ ... ompendium/ out there already that are mostly getting ignored or dis-proven. This tier trinkets are pretty messed up, and its leaving alot of people scratching their heads, myself included.

    My problem with the current math+calculations with the new buffs to our trinkets taken into account is that right now the supposedly mathematically superior trinkets are not performing as well as some of the trinkets on the lower end.

    Soothing Talisman seems like a halfway decent replacement to a Relic of Chi-ji. Also askmrrobot currently has Lightning Imbued Chalice below most of T14's trinkets and I'm pretty sure that's wrong thus my BiS pick. Any feedback on this?

    P.S. Ty Malthanis for allowing this thread.
    Last edited by Korosive; 2013-03-23 at 06:12 AM.

  4. #4
    You can never simply say "this and that trinket are bis". It depends on your role and duration and type of the encounter. For example, im used to focus on the tanks and i just recently got the spirit/usable absorb trinket and i love both the shield and lots of passive mp5. I usually use the absorb when im refreshing sacred shield, to compensate the late first tick.

  5. #5
    Which is why I said "my" BiS pick. However I'm pretty sure 2 of the 5(hopefully I got this number right) trinkets are going to be stand outs. Sure Stolen Relic of Zuldazar is going to stand out on tank healing but is it good enough to use on the majority of the fights as one of your two slots? Even with its overhealing?

    I think if you talk to most paladins who finished T14 while it was still current they will tell you that Qin-xi's Polarizing Seal + Spirits of the Sun were T14's Holy Paladin's BiS.

    Feel free to poke holes, I'm just saying when people talk about BiS what they are generally talking about is "relatively from what we can tell, this is the BiS for this slot overall." When you take into account all of its numbers on each boss and compare them to others.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    You can never simply say "this and that trinket are bis". It depends on your role and duration and type of the encounter. For example, im used to focus on the tanks and i just recently got the spirit/usable absorb trinket and i love both the shield and lots of passive mp5. I usually use the absorb when im refreshing sacred shield, to compensate the late first tick.
    why in the world are you using sacred shield as a healer?

    Anyway, the two shield trinkets have a way too low ppm to actually be viable on most fights, and hydra spawn being even worse due to the randomness of it.

    One way to make them alot better while not being OP, is for example to remove the stacking of relic of zuldazar, put a 2 min cd on it, and make the shield a bit stronger, like 150k or something, maybe more.

    Put a way higher ppm on hydra spawn, like 5-6 ppm, instead of the current 1, and nerf the size of the shield.

    I'm gonna stick to hc will trinket + horridon trinket through this whole tier unless they change the ppms for the shield trinkets drastically.
    Last edited by Proberly; 2013-03-28 at 09:10 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    why in the world are you using sacred shield as a healer?

    Anyway, the two shield trinkets have a way too low ppm to actually be viable on most fights, and hydra spawn being even worse due to the randomness of it.

    One way to make them alot better while not being OP, is for example to remove the stacking of relic of zuldazar, put a 2 min cd on it, and make the shield a bit stronger, like 150k or something, maybe more.

    Put a way higher ppm on hydra spawn, like 5-6 ppm, instead of the current 1, and nerf the size of the shield.

    I'm gonna stick to hc will trinket + horridon trinket through this whole tier unless they change the ppms for the shield trinkets drastically.
    I agree with one exception - I will be using the throughput trinket (unless its BiS for our caster dps which may be the unfortunate case). My mentality on throughput increases (which would extend to the shield trinkets if they actually provided a non-trivial amount of throughput) is that I can nearly always play more conservatively if I have to. On a priest, the valor trinket is quite nice, unfortunately on a paladin I don't feel that I'd be able to predict my mana needs so well on many fights that its potential mana regen value will be realised.

    Additionally, PPM trinkets are quite bad for healers on many fights due to down time. I wonder if blizz has realised this. haste-oriented DPS specs see higher than expected procs-per-minute, but slow casting healers with no haste and moderate downtime could potentially see as little as half as many procs as might be expected. I'd be interested to postulate the value of a PPM trinket for a haste-stacking holy dps priest, for example, who would have monstrously powerful heals in bursts, and then proc the RPPM trinkets quite often while doing mana-positive DPS during periods of low damage.

    Interestingly, most of the tank trinkets in t15 are quite bad for prot paladins. I wonder if this is blizzard's subtle way of slightly weakening the over-performing two specs of paladin without an overt nerf.

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    I will be using the throughput trinket (unless its BiS for our caster dps which may be the unfortunate case).
    How would any of the healing trinkets be BiS for dps?


    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Interestingly, most of the tank trinkets in t15 are quite bad for prot paladins. I wonder if this is blizzard's subtle way of slightly weakening the over-performing two specs of paladin without an overt nerf.
    No, because pretty much every healer agrees on the healing trinkets in ToT. The only one that overall is considered good is horridon's last grasp. If this was an attempt to nerf holy then it would only be holy paladins complaining about them.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-03-29 at 04:52 PM.

  9. #9
    Does lightning imbued chalice rank higher now than infinity power generation has been "greatly" increased?

  10. #10
    I just started playing WoW and a Paladin, what is best way to play it?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    Does lightning imbued chalice rank higher now than infinity power generation has been "greatly" increased?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...25&output=html

    See for yourself
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  12. #12
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post

    For me, the trinket seems to heal on average about 1.5% (low) to 3.5% (high) of my total healing. With the proc rate doubled, I'd assume it would heal up to 3% to 7% (again, low to high) of total heals, which isn't terribad. The other trinkets (shield ones) were already awful, post-buff, they are even worse.

    Hydra-spawn is a real fucking piece of work, something that averages to one proc per ~45 seconds (assuming good gear) of a shield that is less than a fucking AoE heal mastery.

  13. #13
    It varies from healer to healer, that spreadsheet is for monks, who also have a 20% bonus to their healing done. From what I recall holy paladins have 25% then another 5%, which will also effect the trinket. Monks also have significantly more haste.
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  14. #14
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    It varies from healer to healer, that spreadsheet is for monks, who also have a 20% bonus to their healing done. From what I recall holy paladins have 25% then another 5%, which will also effect the trinket. Monks also have significantly more haste.
    Yeah, I figured as much. Still the main idea of the spreadsheet seems to hold true. (the notes you put at the end, for instance)

  15. #15
    Any info on Lightning Imbued Chalice with this recent change? : Lightning-Imbued Chalice now has a greatly increased chance to generate Infinite Power.

  16. #16
    From what i can work out this seems to be the best to worst trinkets for holy overall in 5.2, I done this before the Lightning-Imbued Chalice change. Will have a look at it tomorrow.

    Lightning-Imbued Chalice 535
    Lei Shen

    Horridon's Last Gasp 535
    Horridon

    Lightning-Imbued Chalice 522
    Lei Shen

    Horridon's Last Gasp 522
    Horridon

    Soothing Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault 522
    1750 Valor Points

    Stolen Relic of Zuldazar 535
    Primordius

    Spirits of the Sun 509
    Tsulong

    Stolen Relic of Zuldazar 522
    Primordius

    Lightning-Imbued Chalice 502
    Lei Shen

    Horridon's Last Gasp 502
    Horridon

    Qin-xi's Polarizing Seal 502
    Will of the Emperor

    Relic of Chi-Ji 476
    Darkmoon Faire

    Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn 535
    Megaera

    Spirits of the Sun 496
    Tsulong

    Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn 522
    Megaera

    Heartwarmer Medallion/Cutstitcher Medallion 496
    1312 Valor Points

    Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn 502
    Megaera
    Last edited by mackie; 2013-04-01 at 03:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    I don't think heroic Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn should be ranked that high.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    How would any of the healing trinkets be BiS for dps?

    No, because pretty much every healer agrees on the healing trinkets in ToT. The only one that overall is considered good is horridon's last grasp. If this was an attempt to nerf holy then it would only be holy paladins complaining about them.
    to the first - derp nevermind dunno what I was thinking of

    to the second - yes I understand that, my point was just that its interesting how they're even worse because of how little haste we have. Most other healers run with similarly low haste, I'm aware

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-01 at 06:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mackie View Post
    From what i can work out this seems to be the best to worst trinkets for holy overall in 5.2, I done this before the Lightning-Imbued Chalice change. Will have a look at it tomorrow.
    Frankly, not sure if its a good idea to make lists of what the 'best' trinkets are without qualifying it strictly. For one thing, a lot of people looking for advice come to these threads and will see that you put hydra spawn high on the list and will start using it and not look back. Personally, I disagree with many of the placements on this list, not because they dont provide theoretical gains in approximately that order, but because of the way they work.

    I don't think I would even use heroic hydra spawn over DMC, personally, unless there was a fight which I simply couldn't avoid going oom. I *absolutely* wouldn't use it over double upgraded spirits.

    In that same vein, while I think lightning-imbued chalice is wonderful, there are some fights where that kind of periodic single target smart heal is not particularly useful, and I would much rather throw on a trinket with a regen component.


    TL;DR - be careful making lists, you'd be surprised how many people take them as gospel on these forums
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2013-04-01 at 10:42 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    ---------- Post added 2013-04-01 at 06:41 AM ----------


    ~Snip~

    TL;DR - be careful making lists, you'd be surprised how many people take them as gospel on these forums
    Yeah i forget that most people wont think of it, as the list is more to my play-style, plus hydra HC should be in the place of hydra normal. My mistake

  20. #20
    I just picked up Lightning-Imbued Chalice, I'll post logs at some point in the next raid week.

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