Really nice survey on PVP

[Iseeyou]

I found this post on official forum ! Think it's a good idea to share it too ! All credits to Rerroll.9083

Hello forums,

Many topics are made every day and most of them deffend solid points of view about the current state of the game. However, only those made by “top players” receive the attention they deserve and even these become old in 1 week time. I also have the feeling that there isn’t a general opinion on some topics (such as class balance). Some people will argue that X is the best class while others will answer it’s easy to counter. I’d love to see what does the majority think of the hot topics in the forums.

So I thought it would be interesting to make a quick survey where everyone could share their opinion and see nice statistics and graphics about the other players points of view. Of course, Im not related to Anet nor any gw2 fansite or company. Im just a player with too much free time

Here’s the link to the survey

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1p1P...DXPbY/viewform

Here’s the link to the results (please, answer the questions before checking this out)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1p1P...nalytics?pli=1

If you feel the survey needs some tweaks, feel free to comment in the forums. Also, bump this thread with your opinions, dont let it die with few answers. Id like to gather legit data!

Note: I made this thread with a healthy interest for the game and the pvp community. I believe this thread belongs to the pvp forums and should not be moved to linksville.

Again, thanks for your time!

[Larynx]

I legitimately laughed at the "Add more conquest maps - 0%" part.

[Arrowstormen]

Weakest profession: warrior.

Yeah, no.

[Meledelion]

Weakest profession: warrior.

Yeah, no.

I laughed at that too, especially since ele has 11votes for being the weakest.

Another fun thing is that "which class is weakest vs strongest" doesn't seem to overlap at all.

[schwank05]

It seems most people will not even invite you to a dungeon as anything but a warrior or templar. Its annoying. I don't do much PVP in the game as I enjoy PVE and like the dungeons a lot. So I voted Warrior's as the strongest and from my experience Necro is weakest, as this was my first character and Mesmer and Templar are my next and they are both much stronger than a Necro.

[Arrowstormen]

It seems most people will not even invite you to a dungeon as anything but a warrior or templar. Its annoying. I don't do much PVP in the game as I enjoy PVE and like the dungeons a lot. So I voted Warrior's as the strongest and from my experience Necro is weakest, as this was my first character and Mesmer and Templar are my next and they are both much stronger than a Necro.

It's called a guardian, and I do believe dungeons are not the focus of this thread. But I find that most people could care less about your profession. Also, necromancers are awesome.

[Larynx]

I laughed at that too, especially since ele has 11votes for being the weakest.

Another fun thing is that "which class is weakest vs strongest" doesn't seem to overlap at all.

It seems most people will not even invite you to a dungeon as anything but a warrior or templar. Its annoying. I don't do much PVP in the game as I enjoy PVE and like the dungeons a lot. So I voted Warrior's as the strongest and from my experience Necro is weakest, as this was my first character and Mesmer and Templar are my next and they are both much stronger than a Necro.

Weakest profession: warrior.

Yeah, no.

PvP poll is about PvP.

[Meledelion]

I know and warrior isn't the weakest prof in PvP...

[Larynx]

I know and warrior isn't the weakest prof in PvP...

This poll isn't representative of hotjoin balance.

Then again, this balance is only relevant to probably a few hundred people at most, so thieves and warriors might as well be the most overpowered thing in the game and we should nerf them some more.

[Meledelion]

Being hot join or tournaments, warriors still aren't the weakest prof.

[Larynx]

Being hot join or tournaments, warriors still aren't the weakest prof.

Let me explain to you why you're wrong.

In summary: The most important thing about warriors is that they're a very weak profession to play 1v1. They're either intentionally or not designed around requiring allied support in order to be most effective. While this concept is fine normally, no one else requires constant hand holding in team fights like a warrior does with the exception of some necromancer builds. They're going to be incredibly weak versus any sort of conditions, or they need to sacrifice a large chunk of their damage or survivability. Similarly, they're also very immobile. But why? You'd expect the profession with three or four gap closers on their bar to be super mobile. This is for the reasons stated above, they can't remove conditions. Chill and cripple halve the distance their movement abilities travel, making rush only 600 range, savage leap 300 range, and so on. Other professions have this issue too of course, but this can be dealt with by either have a ranged options, having a teleport ability, or simply have condition removal.

Warriors are very squishy, which is compounded by the above issues. They have 18k base health and most builds would get them to around 21k health and base toughness (armor difference between heavy/light is only about 200 toughness). So, right off the bat they're about even with other similar builds. What makes them so weak compared to say a thief who only has 13-16k health? They lack defensive mechanics in general. Warriors can only rely on shield stance (which is why they can't bring a warhorn for mobility), or they bring Endure Pain (which has an 80 second cooldown and doesn't last the full duration due to a bug). Thieves can use superior mobility to disengage from a fight, whereas a warrior can not. Thieves can use superior defensive mechanics to last longer in a fight, whereas warriors can not. Thieves have a ranged option and aren't required to be in melee to damage, whereas warriors do.

That's most of the basic reasons. Again, they're bad 1v1 and require constant team support (because...), they're squishy, they get shut down incredibly fast, they're vulnerable to conditions, and they're immobile and have no way of disengaging from a bad situation like an elementalist might.

As for why this makes them bad in tournaments?

They're can not disengage from a fight. This instantly makes them useless for any sort of far/near point assault like an elementalist or thief will do.
They can't 1v1 well enough. This instantly makes them useless for holding the near point or far point like a ranger or mesmer will do.
They're squishy and shut down easily. This makes them a pain to bring for a mid fight or any team fight since they don't contribute enough to carry their weight. You can quite literally back pedal away from a warrior who is crippled or chilled, and he has no way of doing anything about it. What will he do? Eviscerate for 150 range?

Warriors have a single niche. This niche isn't very desirable, and they aren't even that good at it.

On their benefits: A properly built warrior can have near 70%ish uptime on immobilize. They're incredibly effective at stopping people from ressurecting downed players with 100B, and in general can do a lot of damage to a still target. Assuming the warrior isn't being focused, he can actually do quite a bit. But of course he's going to be focused since he's the priority target.


This isn't to say classes like necromancers or engineers are fine, because they aren't. But on the scale of viability, engineers > necromancers > warriors.

[Meledelion]

Do you even play tPvP?

Your entire comparison is "thief beats war hence war sucks" which is laughable.

[Lazuli]

War is fine, l2warhorn and take proper traits to remove conditions and faceroll everything with bulls HB frenzy. As they say... "Shake it off!"

You can't expect to get out of every immobile/chill/etc. without using the proper mobile weapon set. It's like a thief running without shortbow, you can catch his ass easy. Or an ele without RTL dagger offhand.

ANY proff getting focused is fucked.. that is nothing class specific, the wonders of having no healer and getting your shit rupted lol enjoy your anus being ravaged. GG e-sports.

[Deleted]

Do you even play tPvP?

Your entire comparison is "thief beats war hence war sucks" which is laughable.

The only thing that is laughable is that you have presented zero facts or reasoning as to why you think warriors are not the weakest profession, nor any counter arguments to the reasons Larynx provided.

---------- Post added 2013-03-22 at 12:30 PM ----------

Another fun thing is that "which class is weakest vs strongest" doesn't seem to overlap at all.

What are you on about?

The three weakest classes according to the which is weakest question are warrior, engy, necro.

Then if you look at the strongest class question the three classes with the least votes are engy, necro, warrior.

The same three classes are considered among the weakest and least strong, how is that not overlap?

[Meledelion]

Do I really have to go to the effort of explaining that larynx simply plays the warrior wrong? I mean nagging about mobility when the warrior is being played as a bunker or group roamer (2guard, 1mes 1war 1ele) where the mes war ele team roams to help the two guardians when needed?

Weakest class (reversed) guard>mes>ele >thief >ranger>necromancer>engineer >warrior
Strongest class ele >Mes>thief>guard>ranger>warrior >necromancer>engineer
That's only going from positions and completely ignoring the %, if you take the % into account you can safely say that the overlap is shit. The only "overlap" is mes second strongest, ranger 5th strongest that's it...

[Deleted]

Do I really have to go to the effort of explaining that larynx simply plays the warrior wrong?

Do what you wish, but basically replying to the guy "you are wrong I am right" with zero explanation is not very convincing. But anyway in regard to warrior, the reason people consider it weak is it really isn't the best at anything (there are better bunkers / point holders, most people consider thief to be better at taking people out in team fights, ele is better at harrassing far point, mesmer brings more group utliity, etc) and people also feel to get anything out of it (at top level in tPvP) you have to build very specifically around it.

Weakest class (reversed) guard>mes>ele >thief >ranger>necromancer>engineer >warrior
Strongest class ele >Mes>thief>guard>ranger>warrior >necromancer>engineer
That's only going from positions and completely ignoring the %, if you take the % into account you can safely say that the overlap is shit. The only "overlap" is mes second strongest, ranger 5th strongest that's it...

It is unrealistic to expect the strongest order to be an exact reverse copy of the weakest order, that the perceived weakest three are also the percieved least strong is overlap, that the least weak 4 are also regarded as the stongest four is also overlap, claimng there is zero overlap is simply incorrect. The only thing I would say is the survey would probably have been improved if people were allowed to vote 1 to 5 (weak to very strong) on all classes rather than just a single weakest or strongest class.

[Deleted]

warriors really do suck...
they are GREAT in hotjoin just go 100b build and pwn noobs easly!
but in serieus competive spvp they not really good

[Meledelion]

Do what you wish, but basically replying to the guy "you are wrong I am right" with zero explanation is not very convincing. But anyway in regard to warrior, the reason people consider it weak is it really isn't the best at anything (there are better bunkers / point holders, most people consider thief to be better at taking people out in team fights, ele is better at harrassing far point, mesmer brings more group utliity, etc) and people also feel to get anything out of it (at top level in tPvP) you have to build very specifically around it.



It is unrealistic to expect the strongest order to be an exact reverse copy of the weakest order, that the perceived weakest three are also the percieved least strong is overlap, that the least weak 4 are also regarded as the stongest four is also overlap, claimng there is zero overlap is simply incorrect. The only thing I would say is the survey would probably have been improved if people were allowed to vote 1 to 5 (weak to very stong) on all classes rather than just a single weakest or strongest class.

I agree that "what is strongest what is weakest" is a poor way of execution of the survey. The issue I have is that saying stuff like "top 3" overlaps on it's own is true but the difference between the % is huge you'd expect that if 44% of the population thinks a class is the strongest (with the second strongest getting close to half of that) that if you ask the reversed question you'd see something similar yet the disparity is again 50% but on the other side (getting double instead of half)

Time to go in-depth on the warrior issue I supose
Ofcourse you have to build specifically around it every class has too...
It's simply wrong to say that something is the worst because it isn't the best at anything. I'm sorry but by that same definition you can say that elementalists are the worst bunkers, the worst dps and the worst roamers since a guardian is a better bunker, a thief/mes is better dps and a thief mes also is a better roamer (ty portal). I hope you see what I'm getting at here...

Let me explain to you why you're wrong.

1. In summary: The most important thing about warriors is that they're a very weak profession to play 1v1. They're either intentionally or not designed around requiring allied support in order to be most effective. While this concept is fine normally, no one else requires constant hand holding in team fights like a warrior does with the exception of some necromancer builds.

2. They're going to be incredibly weak versus any sort of conditions, or they need to sacrifice a large chunk of their damage or survivability.

3. Similarly, they're also very immobile. But why? You'd expect the profession with three or four gap closers on their bar to be super mobile. This is for the reasons stated above, they can't remove conditions. Chill and cripple halve the distance their movement abilities travel, making rush only 600 range, savage leap 300 range, and so on. Other professions have this issue too of course, but this can be dealt with by either have a ranged options, having a teleport ability, or simply have condition removal.

4. Warriors are very squishy, which is compounded by the above issues. They have 18k base health and most builds would get them to around 21k health and base toughness (armor difference between heavy/light is only about 200 toughness). So, right off the bat they're about even with other similar builds.

5. What makes them so weak compared to say a thief who only has 13-16k health? They lack defensive mechanics in general. Warriors can only rely on shield stance (which is why they can't bring a warhorn for mobility), or they bring Endure Pain (which has an 80 second cooldown and doesn't last the full duration due to a bug).

6. Thieves can use superior mobility to disengage from a fight, whereas a warrior can not. Thieves can use superior defensive mechanics to last longer in a fight, whereas warriors can not. Thieves have a ranged option and aren't required to be in melee to damage, whereas warriors do.

7. That's most of the basic reasons. Again, they're bad 1v1 and require constant team support (because...), they're squishy, they get shut down incredibly fast, they're vulnerable to conditions, and they're immobile and have no way of disengaging from a bad situation like an elementalist might.

As for why this makes them bad in tournaments?

8. They're can not disengage from a fight. This instantly makes them useless for any sort of far/near point assault like an elementalist or thief will do.

9. They can't 1v1 well enough. This instantly makes them useless for holding the near point or far point like a ranger or mesmer will do.

10. They're squishy and shut down easily. This makes them a pain to bring for a mid fight or any team fight since they don't contribute enough to carry their weight. You can quite literally back pedal away from a warrior who is crippled or chilled, and he has no way of doing anything about it. What will he do? Eviscerate for 150 range?

11. Warriors have a single niche. This niche isn't very desirable, and they aren't even that good at it.

On their benefits: A properly built warrior can have near 70%ish uptime on immobilize. They're incredibly effective at stopping people from ressurecting downed players with 100B, and in general can do a lot of damage to a still target. Assuming the warrior isn't being focused, he can actually do quite a bit. But of course he's going to be focused since he's the priority target.


This isn't to say classes like necromancers or engineers are fine, because they aren't. But on the scale of viability, engineers > necromancers > warriors.

1. While warriors don't have the same bunker abilities as a guardian or elementalist you shouldn't disregard their ability to defend a point. Bunker wars use Hammer + GS (if they're playing roamer as well) or Hammer + Axe/Shield. Regardless of what secondary set they choose they'll have 3KD's/stuns. Add the cripple to this and you get pretty good kiting abilities. One of the much beloved combos is using the KD's/stuns from hammer, swapping to shieldset, stunning again and unleashing hell with Axe. The moment trouble arises the war can pop shield stance after which he switches back to hammer to land a new earthshaker (possibly with endure pain).

The bunker war will be rocking solid PVT "gear" to add to his bunker capabilities. Utilities are endure pain + shake it off and the third depends on what the role of the war is, commonly people seem to use stomp.

Now let's go with the roamer part. The goal of the warrior is to "cc" the enemy by knocking them down/stunning them so eles have easy times landing Churning Earth, ring of fire, fire blast, and any other aoe ability. A good war will try to knock targets together before KDing so most enemies are hit (and don't deal dmg). This is the reason why warriors are the prime target, they can shut down an entire team without much effort. Now ofcourse the war has some issues, but you should pop EP asap, together with the elite banner so you get balanced stance and won't be cc'd.

2. Mending is a great way of getting rid off conditions, add shake it off to this (you have another stun breaker) and if you think it's needed you can grab the trait that makes mending lose even more conditions (this usually isn't needed though)

3. They are immobile when solo, this is true. However knowing this you shouldn't be running around solo or play as a roamer. You're going to either be point defence or as described above a group roamer relying on the mesmer's portals/swiftness. Everything else regarding conditions is fine and dandy but all profs suffer from this. If you're having issues dealing with conditions (mainly chill/cripple) grab 10 in strength and you should hardly ever be chilled/crippled. On another note there aren't many classes in the meta that actually do chill and cripple. Most chills/cripples come from ground targeted spells (ranger is an exception even though their traps help) and can be avoided quite often.

4. A full bunker war doesn't have 21k hp and 1.2k armor as suggested by larynx. Without traits my war is rocking 25k hp and 2852 armor which is a lot more than a thief (14k hp/2000 arm (traited)) or mes (18k hp/1971 arm (traited)). Add to this what I said above regarding stuns/kds and you know that warriors aren't as squishy as made out to be. If an enemy uses stability and you're with your hammer being squishy, swap weapons or pop endure pain...

5. See 4.

6. Your goal as a warrior isn't to kill shit, making a thief run away makes it so you've achieved your goal. For the rest see 4. again.

7. You're "bad" 1v1 but your goal is to have your team fall back on you (or for you to fall back onto your guardian), if you lack communication you're gonna have a bad time but that doesn't make the warrior bad.
Again regarding mobility/conditions see 1. 2. 3. and 6.

8. See 7.

9. Again 1v1 qq, see above

10. Really CBA read the rest

11. They have 3 (the bunkers I mentioned above and then there's also a Longbow build although I don't know the specifics of that)

TLDR; Everything he said comes from trying to play the warrior the wrong way.

[Deleted]

i laugh when people think warriors are OP Just becuse they are wanted and INSANLY good if so in pve, it DOES not make them good at pvp..
( I am not saying warriors are underpowered i am saying they are not overpowered which is very stupid thing to say )

Meledelion

Show video of you playing instead of writing 1000words, everyone can write something for their proffesion to make them seem stable / awesome


sorry for my bad english.

[Meledelion]

Show video of you playing instead of writing 1000words, everyone can write something for their proffesion to make them seem stable / awesome

I'm not sure if you're serious about this, it's quite simple to see that I've debunked everything Larynx has claimed. Just read what I wrote and think about it, if you find that my reasoning is sound it's safe to assume I'm right.