what do Americans think of "living the dream"

[Kujako]

So are you saying we dont have illegal immigrants in this county?

(sigh) since you clearly are just going to make up things and attribute them to me rather then back up your position I guess we're done. Lunch time.

[blackyfrost]

I think the American Dream died around 1980.

in the 50s, a factory worker could afford healthcare, a new car every few years, a nice home and a vacation or two every year. debt wasn't an issue

by 1980 a factory worker couldn't afford 1 new car, couldn't pay his bills without a spouse or roomate to help and it was already common for mom and dad to go to work to avoid living in a trailer

and healthcare, wow, if the price of a gallon of gas had risen at the same rate as healthcare since 1950, gas would be over $30 per gallon
the USA is set up to put you in debt and keep you there because it's profitable for the people who own your debt

what's funny is that a $25,000 car today is more technical and complicated, but costs 74% as much to produce per vehicle as they did in 1955 but it takes about 7x as much of your average income to get it

[Zubril]

If you can get arrested for hunting or fishing without a license, but not for being in the country illegally ...you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If you have to get your parents’ permission to go on a field trip or take an aspirin in school, but not to get an abortion ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If the only school curriculum allowed to explain how we got here is evolution, but the government stops a $15 million construction project to keep a rare spider from evolving to extinction ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If you have to show identification to board an airplane, cash a check, buy liquor or check out a library book, but not to vote who runs the government ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If the government wants to ban stable, law-abiding citizens from owning gun magazines with more than ten rounds, but gives 20 F-16 fighter jets to the crazy new leaders in Egypt ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If, in the largest city, you can buy two 16-ounce sodas, but not a 24-ounce soda because 24-ounces of a sugary drink might make you fat ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If an 80-year-old woman can be stripped searched by the TSA but a woman in a hijab is only subject to having her neck and head searched ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If your government believes that the best way to eradicate trillions of dollars of debt is to spend trillions more ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If a seven year old boy can be thrown out of school for saying his teacher’s "cute," but hosting a sexual exploration or diversity class in grade school is perfectly acceptable ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If children are forcibly removed from parents who discipline them with spankings while children of addicts are left in filth and drug infested “homes”... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If hard work and success are met with higher taxes and more government intrusion, while not working is rewarded with EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid, subsidized housing and free cell phones ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If the government's plan for getting people back to work is to incentivize NOT working with 99 weeks of unemployment checks and no requirement to prove they applied but can’t find work ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

If being stripped of the ability to defend yourself makes you more "safe" according to the government ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

[Stede]

To echo what others have said, Michael Moore exaggerates. Don't listen to him. 9/11 was, in fact, caused by terrorists. Bush is not a terrorist, but he's not exactly brilliant and he lied to everyone. Saddam Hussein was actively engaged in a Cold War with Iran, and the threat of nuclear capabilities was a farce that he intentionally kept up for the benefit of his country (this is confirmed on record by his top lieutenants). While WMDs were never found because they never existed, there were weapons caches found of chemical agents banned by the treaty of Geneva that were found after the Iraqi invasion. Still no reason to invade (see Syria), but meanacing nonetheless, considering their use barely more than a decade earlier on Kuwaiti civilians.

Medical care in America is quite good. It's the access to it that is our biggest problem, and that's a struggle. This country was founded less than 250 years ago via a revolution against the British Empire. There are few former colonies that have have fared as well as America in the modern age. America was not completely settled until about a century ago, and it's been only about 150 years since our only civil war. The country is young, and it was built on individuals who fought for principles - one of which was a decentralized government. And so, it's often confusing for Europeans to fathom the many differences in terms of law and governance between states, and to understand just how much power resides with states, rather than the federal government. In the modern era, federalism is more of the norm in Europe, whereas in America, it's something that's only been slowly taking hold. Our country was never a monarchy or oligarchy - it's only been a democratic republic.

The pofiteering done in hospitals in America is disgusting, and it is something a lot of people are actively trying to change, but it takes time and effort. It wasn't always that way, and I think the de-centralization of governmental authority has been central to the problem.

It's really tough to speak to your OP. I've supported my opinions with facts and history, while you've supported yours with the words of an out-of-shape documentary filmmaker with a penchant for openly disdaining America and distorting facts. I find it ironic, then, that you would consider Americans to be brainwashed. There is a difference between nationalism and being brainwashed by propoganda. And unless we're going to say that all Turks are brainwashed, I think we have to admit that difference exists.

But let's talk about "Living the Dream" - because that's what this thread is really about - not tossing back and about all sorts of anti-American hate because I watched a movie about a place I've never really learned much about except what I see on the tele.

Politicians contend that the american dream is to find a stable job, buy a house, afford some simple luxuries, and save for retirement. The world is never that stable, though. If you're smart about it, though, America gives you a good chance to do all those things. It's tough to talk about "Living the Dream" until we know what the dream is. Personally, I enjoy gardening, cooking, and kayaking, among other things. The natural beauty of America allows me to kayak and the mix and influence of cultures allows me to experience foods and plants that I wouldn't otherwise know about. I wasn't born into money, but I've made it, even though I had to take on a crushing amount of student loan debt to do it. I don't pretend that my success can be extended to a rationale for not trying to improve the things that are wrong with my country.

I think a person can genuinely love America and still be critical of it. That person, though, is generally much more informed than the OP as to the issues facing America and their complications, and also simply capable of a much higher level of critical thought and reasoning.

[Zubril]

Michael Moore's brand of radical agenda-pushing rhetoric is the LAST thing schools should be showing children. Disturbing.

[Stede]

in the 50s, a factory worker could afford healthcare, a new car every few years, a nice home and a vacation or two every year. debt wasn't an issue

by 1980 a factory worker couldn't afford 1 new car, couldn't pay his bills without a spouse or roomate to help and it was already common for mom and dad to go to work to avoid living in a trailer

and healthcare, wow, if the price of a gallon of gas had risen at the same rate as healthcare since 1950, gas would be over $30 per gallon
the USA is set up to put you in debt and keep you there because it's profitable for the people who own your debt

what's funny is that a $25,000 car today is more technical and complicated, but costs 74% as much to produce per vehicle as they did in 1955 but it takes about 7x as much of your average income to get it

A new car every few years isn't really sustainable, anyway. It may have been necessary given the reliability issues with autos in the 1950s. Healthcare has come a long way since the 1950s, and presuming a linear scaling seems shortsighted. The margins though, and the double- and triple-billing and administrative overhead - those are egregious

[petej0]

(sigh) since you clearly are just going to make up things and attribute them to me rather then back up your position I guess we're done. Lunch time.

Then dont butt into a conversation and try to change the argument. My argument has been from the beginning that the American Dream is not dead, because we still have people risking their lives illegally crossing our borders to find a better life. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, they are here for only one purpose. To build themselves a better life. Thus they are here chasing the American Dream which is very much alive for them and many others.

[Deleted]

To echo what others have said, Michael Moore exaggerates. Don't listen to him. 9/11 was, in fact, caused by terrorists. Bush is not a terrorist, but he's not exactly brilliant and he lied to everyone. Saddam Hussein was actively engaged in a Cold War with Iran, and the threat of nuclear capabilities was a farce that he intentionally kept up for the benefit of his country (this is confirmed on record by his top lieutenants). While WMDs were never found because they never existed, there were weapons caches found of chemical agents banned by the treaty of Geneva that were found after the Iraqi invasion. Still no reason to invade (see Syria), but meanacing nonetheless, considering their use barely more than a decade earlier on Kuwaiti civilians.

Medical care in America is quite good. It's the access to it that is our biggest problem, and that's a struggle. This country was founded less than 250 years ago via a revolution against the British Empire. There are few former colonies that have have fared as well as America in the modern age. America was not completely settled until about a century ago, and it's been only about 150 years since our only civil war. The country is young, and it was built on individuals who fought for principles - one of which was a decentralized government. And so, it's often confusing for Europeans to fathom the many differences in terms of law and governance between states, and to understand just how much power resides with states, rather than the federal government. In the modern era, federalism is more of the norm in Europe, whereas in America, it's something that's only been slowly taking hold. Our country was never a monarchy or oligarchy - it's only been a democratic republic.

The pofiteering done in hospitals in America is disgusting, and it is something a lot of people are actively trying to change, but it takes time and effort. It wasn't always that way, and I think the de-centralization of governmental authority has been central to the problem.

It's really tough to speak to your OP. I've supported my opinions with facts and history, while you've supported yours with the words of an out-of-shape documentary filmmaker with a penchant for openly disdaining America and distorting facts. I find it ironic, then, that you would consider Americans to be brainwashed. There is a difference between nationalism and being brainwashed by propoganda. And unless we're going to say that all Turks are brainwashed, I think we have to admit that difference exists.

But let's talk about "Living the Dream" - because that's what this thread is really about - not tossing back and about all sorts of anti-American hate because I watched a movie about a place I've never really learned much about except what I see on the tele.

Politicians contend that the american dream is to find a stable job, buy a house, afford some simple luxuries, and save for retirement. The world is never that stable, though. If you're smart about it, though, America gives you a good chance to do all those things. It's tough to talk about "Living the Dream" until we know what the dream is. Personally, I enjoy gardening, cooking, and kayaking, among other things. The natural beauty of America allows me to kayak and the mix and influence of cultures allows me to experience foods and plants that I wouldn't otherwise know about. I wasn't born into money, but I've made it, even though I had to take on a crushing amount of student loan debt to do it. I don't pretend that my success can be extended to a rationale for not trying to improve the things that are wrong with my country.

I think a person can genuinely love America and still be critical of it. That person, though, is generally much more informed than the OP as to the issues facing America and their complications, and also simply capable of a much higher level of critical thought and reasoning.

Thanks for your response. As I said, but maybe not clear enough, is what I said I saw and I asked here for opinions about it to learn more. Maybe I should've frased it otherwise. My apologies.

Now back to your post. I've done quite some research to come to the conclusion 9/11 wasn't a terrorist attack. Why are you thinking it was?

[Deleted]

Isn't the American dream fat guy skinny wife?

---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 06:38 PM ----------

Michael Moore's brand of radical agenda-pushing rhetoric is the LAST thing schools should be showing children. Disturbing.

Radical? lol.

[blackyfrost]

A new car every few years isn't really sustainable, anyway. It may have been necessary given the reliability issues with autos in the 1950s. Healthcare has come a long way since the 1950s, and presuming a linear scaling seems shortsighted. The margins though, and the double- and triple-billing and administrative overhead - those are egregious

not sure how old you are, but i know you've never seen that the hospital charged you $9 per tylenol. read a medical bill sometime. it's hilarious
doctor stick his head in your room and sign a piece of paper? $250
that's not justifiable.

my favorite though was the $15 each disposable diapers they sent home with me when my kid was born. they were normal huggies, they didn't change themselves. a lot of this cost has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with malpractice insurance and the increased cost of education

a new car every 3-5 years is as sustainable as the cost prohibits. profit margin now is thousands of % higher than it was and a LOT of cars are leased for 2 years anyway.

you're right that cars last longer now in terms of mileage, but they cost more to repair, people commute more in 3 months than they did in a year in 1955 and people have always liked new, shiny things

just that back then you could afford it and now, nobody can

[Deleted]

Terrorist attack based on what facts? What the media tells you?

Government organised attack to start a war based on what facts? What some nuts on the internet tell you?

[Zubril]

The dream seems to get convoluted when we see the majority of immigrants hop the border and jump directly onto the government dole funded by taxpayer dollars, rather than going the legal route and being taxpayers themselves. It's true, we do need to improve the process by which immigrants achieve citizenship as not to discourage them, but moreover, our entitlement society needs to be addressed before we can ever hope to fix immigration.

As it stands, we basically promote illegal immigration by rewarding it EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid, subsidized housing and free cell phones ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but it's run by idiots.

[petej0]

not sure how old you are, but i know you've never seen that the hospital charged you $9 per tylenol. read a medical bill sometime. it's hilarious
doctor stick his head in your room and sign a piece of paper? $250
that's not justifiable.

my favorite though was the $15 each disposable diapers they sent home with me when my kid was born. they were normal huggies, they didn't change themselves. a lot of this cost has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with malpractice insurance and the increased cost of education

a new car every 3-5 years is as sustainable as the cost prohibits. profit margin now is thousands of % higher than it was and a LOT of cars are leased for 2 years anyway.

you're right that cars last longer now in terms of mileage, but they cost more to repair, people commute more in 3 months than they did in a year in 1955 and people have always liked new, shiny things

just that back then you could afford it and now, nobody can

Hospitals charging high prices is a HUGE problem. An issue not solved by any proposal in the Affordable Care Act, which is why I was against it. It only solved WHO was paying, not WHAT was being paid.

As far as cars, I would have to compare the price to income ratio today then back in say the 50's but I think we tend to think the dollar doesnt go as far today because salaries have stayed stagnant. But nobody looks at all the additional expenditures Americans have today then back in the 50's. Today it not unheard of to have a Mortgage/Rent, Electric bill, Phone bill. Internet, Cellphone, Cable, car, car insurance, subscriptions (magazines, games, movie clubs like netflix) among so many others, Dish TV, Satellite Radio etc.. Americans are nickle and dimed today and you wont realize it until you sit down with your bank and credit card statements and build your budget. The American Middle class inst disappearing due to wages and corporate greed. It is disappearing due to lack of fiscal control.