1. #1

    Exclamation Arms. crit vs haste. Discussion

    I just want to clear this out. what should one gem for now? I have a few yellow gems that I'm considering to swap them for haste. but is this worth it? should I keep crit or continue gemming for crit?

    I know haste is probably going to be beaten by madtery soon but is crit above or below these two stats?

  2. #2
    Currently crit>mastery>haste but once you get 2pT15, RPPM trinkets and the legendary metagem haste will start gaining value. Keep gemming crit and if you want accurate statweights for your gear just sim your character.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    Currently crit>mastery>haste but once you get 2pT15, RPPM trinkets and the legendary metagem haste will start gaining value. Keep gemming crit and if you want accurate statweights for your gear just sim your character.
    okay, seems right. but where to sim then? I haven't tried any other than askmrrobot but I only use it to get exp/hit capped because I know that it suck.

  4. #4
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=simcraft
    The first link is to the downloadable application of Simcraft. Very useful, especially (if)when you start getting heavy into theorycrafting.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer turskanaattori's Avatar
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    I just simmed last night and noticed that haste had overtaken mastery by .09 (1.43 and 1.34 respectively) while crit still remaining the winner (1.91)

  6. #6
    I dunno really... I mean.. Crit is not that important for Arms, since our nr1 damage ability is Overpower, and it got by default 60% crit?... so crit is not that important... I would go for: Crit(Untill you reach 20-25% buffed)>Mastery>Haste>Crit
    But that 25% crit would be for Mortal Strike and Execute only. Since the AutoAttacks would outweight the dmg from DoTs.. Therefore crit above 25% is a waste of dps... at least that makes sense in my head... Haste generates more Rage, and generates Rage faster.. and in 5.2 warriors gain 50% more from Haste. So it's not that bad anymore as it use to be.. I'm arms when I raid, and I'm normally above other warriors in DPS. That sounded like a brag -.-'.. But im not nr1 dps, not at all... I'm often about 3-8 on the dps meter for boss fights.. I might get to nr1 on aoe adds, but that's not a boss fight..

  7. #7
    What makes sense in your head is not even close to what's optimal. Why would you even try to give advise without some math or sims to back up your ideas....next up people are going to suggest transmorging gear into a pink dress is going to be a dps increase

  8. #8
    Using Chapterhouse's logs as reference: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2t...7/?s=251&e=578

    Quote Originally Posted by DraCurse View Post
    But that 25% crit would be for Mortal Strike and Execute only.
    Overpower has a 60% crit chance, so ~20% of your dps gains benefit from crit up to 40%.
    Melee benefits from crit and is ~12% of your dps.
    Mortal Strike+Execute equal about 24% of your dps.
    This also doesn't include damage from Heroic Strike, Colossus Smash or your mastery procs (Opportunity Strike).
    Deep wounds can also crit.
    Quote Originally Posted by DraCurse View Post
    Since the AutoAttacks would outweight the dmg from DoTs..
    Melee via the logs did a combined damage of 5,403,006. DoTs (bleeds for the warrior) are Deep Wounds and Bloodbath (which can be replaced with Stormbolt and added to "effected by crit") which did 3,934,225 and 2,748,776 respectively, combining for 6,683,001 damage, doing almost 25% more damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraCurse View Post
    Therefore crit above 25% is a waste of dps... at least that makes sense in my head...
    Deep Wounds can also crit. Also, why 25%? For Fury, since Bloodthirst has double crit chance, getting it to 50% (ie, 25% crit self) is when crit is most effective, however it is still valuable after the fact. Also, critting with Mortal Strike and Colossus Smash grant Enrage which increases damage dealt by 10% for 5 seconds as well as gaining 10 rage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraCurse View Post
    Haste generates more Rage, and generates Rage faster.. and in 5.2 warriors gain 50% more from Haste.
    You are swinging a two handed weapon. Haste won't increase your attack speed that much. Assume 0 haste, you attack every 3.6 seconds for 12.5 rage per swing. Mortal Strike grants 10 rage every 6 seconds (assuming no Overpowers used which reduce the cd of Mortal Strike). You gain 1% haste for 283.2 rating and 1% crit for 600 rating. For ease purposes, I'll make haste 300, and crit 600 so that it's easier on conversion. You have 50% haste vs 25% crit given roughly the same amount of stats to work with. Over 1 minute, you'd Mortal Strike 10 times and auto attack 16 times. That is 100 rage via Mortal Strike and 200 rage from auto attacks. If you were to implement the values, 25% crit would increase your Mortal Strike rage gained by 25 and increase damage by 10% for 15 seconds (1/4th of a minute). 50% haste would increase number of attacks per minute to 25, granting 9 more attacks and increasing rage gained to 300. Assuming you Overpower twice per Mortal Strike, you'll Mortal Strike every 5 seconds (12 times per minute) changing it to 120 rage with an additional 30 rage.
    So, 2.5% damage increase(10%*25% of the time) + 1.25*gained Rage vs 1.5*gained Rage. If you look at it via damage
    25% Crit= 12 Mortal Strikes, 22 Overpowers (not included are the two for the last Mortal Strike), 16 auto attacks. Baseline 320 rage. 30 Enrage bonus Rage. 2.5% damage gain.
    50% Haste= 12 Mortal Strikes, 22 Overpowers, 25 auto attacks. Baseline 420 rage.
    70 Rage difference. Used on Slam between, so we'll count Haste having 2.3 Heroic Strikes.

    Damage:
    Overpower hit for 36k noncrits, 82k crits.
    Mortal Strike hit 87k noncrits, 189k crits.
    Auto Attacks hit for 42k noncrits, 85k crits.
    Heroic Strike hit 54k.
    Comparison:
    50% Haste will have 87k*12 + (82k*.6+36k*.4)*22 + 42k*25 + 54k*2.3 for damage. (=3,617,400 damage or 60290 dps)
    25% Crit will have ((87k*.75+189k*.25)*12 + (82k*.85+36k*.15)*22 + (42k*.75+85k*.25)*16) * 1.025 for damage. (=3,942,355 damage or 65706 dps)
    Almost a 10% dps gain for going crit instead of haste. And this isn't including Deep Wounds nor Strikes of Opportunity which can both crit.
    Last edited by Recke; 2013-03-22 at 01:15 PM.

  9. #9
    @Recke
    At what point do you then start to lose DPS from stacking crit? There is a certain crit % where by it starts to scale less in therms of dps gain... I am just curious to know where is that certain % limit?
    Although that point might be out of reach, I still wanna know when you start it that point.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DraCurse View Post
    @Recke
    At what point do you then start to lose DPS from stacking crit? There is a certain crit % where by it starts to scale less in therms of dps gain... I am just curious to know where is that certain % limit?
    Although that point might be out of reach, I still wanna know when you start it that point.
    For Arms, it's probably post 60% where you lose Overpower's usefulness in compared to the damage and forces Slam as your CS dump, but then again that might be a dps increase. At 40% crit, Overpower will crit 100% of the time. Crit after that will be less useful, but I doubt enough to make it worse than haste.
    In terms of gearing (ie if you look at BiS t15 sim), haste looks to be a higher stat weight, but only due having a legendary meta, 2piece tier 15, and 2 5.2 raid trinkets (all rppm) and it's with full crit gear with crit gems. I think it's more so a ratio of somewhere having crit= ~2-3*haste value with all the above.
    Through a small sample size of changes to the t15_arm_bis from Simcraft, you gain damage by unreforging Primordius' Talisman of Rage and then replacing 2 160crit gems (160crit/160hit) with 2 160 haste gems (160haste/160hit) and it then has Haste=Crit for stat weight. This is 38.11% crit and 31.81% haste (16254 vs 9012) so there might (MIGHT) be some correlation to that.

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