1. #1
    Keyboard Turner
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    Simcraft Results Confusion: Fire or Frost?

    I just made a new account to pose a question I ran into while raising my item level from 501 to 504. I'm normally a Fire mage but when I compared the simcraft results from my 501 item level/gear to the new 504 item level/gear, it was telling me that haste weight was actually better than my crit weight as a fire mage. For reference, my 501 item level/gear had my crit up to about 34% so I know I'm capable of running fire and I sim with patchwerk fights just to see the raw dps.
    Anyway, plugging the new weights into ask mr robot and optimizing gave me roughly 27% haste and 23% crit. Is this right? I know simcraft doesn't take trinket procs into account so maybe that's the trick here and I'm testing both sets out currently, but supposing the haste weight is higher, should I just switch to frost or is haste actually better for me as fire?

  2. #2
    High Overlord Ixidron's Avatar
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    On ask mr robot, had you selected fire as the spec you wanted to optimise?
    Mine defaulted to frost for some reason, hence it weighted the haste above crit

  3. #3
    Tbh at that item lvl you will most likely do more dps as frost.

    And no, Haste is never getting better than crit in fire spec, if anything it devalues to a point in ilvl where mastery is better than haste so it becomes crit>mastery>haste instead of haste>mastery

  4. #4
    Keyboard Turner
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    Yes Ixidron, I did check to make sure it was set to fire. The problem here is that the weights Simcraft came up with had haste better than crit for some odd reason. I've been running the sims exactly the same and it was giving crit>haste before so I really don't know what to do.

    Also, I suppose I should've been a bit more clear. I'd like to keep running fire either way, frost just isn't as fun to me. I guess if that's the case I should just reforge and gem manually? The stat weights I get are: INT-4.5, SP-3.46, HIT-3.97, CRIT-2.62, HASTE-3.03, MASTERY-2.2.
    Last edited by Pyrojack; 2013-03-21 at 09:46 PM.

  5. #5
    I did several simC on my self today and in every scenario i got almost the same stat weights, normalized factors: Int=1 Crit=0.61 Haste= 0.53 and mastery= 0.53
    Only difference was with more adds both haste and mastery rised up to .56-57 at some points but crit was always higher. Ran with reforge plots as well.
    so basically every sim(10+) showed crit>haste~=mastery

    are you close to a haste breakpoint? do you use reforgeplots?

    Would help with your armory. but the basic answer is Crit is never gonna get low value than haste in fire, unless we hit the Crit +cm Cap, witch im pretty sure blizzard will never allow.

  6. #6
    Don't bother looking at simcraft. Lhivera himself said that all the specs are not even showing correct numbers and I haven't seen it been changed since he said that.

    source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8178378083

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DeathDefier View Post
    Don't bother looking at simcraft. Lhivera himself said that all the specs are not even showing correct numbers and I haven't seen it been changed since he said that.

    source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8178378083
    I have a tendency to take what ever lhivera says as pure bullshit so ... He's been out of touch for a loooong time. Also i love that they are questioning the fact that a mage did 100-160k dps lol.... should be pretty standard dps.

    Also
    Quote Originally Posted by Lhivera
    "Last I knew (5.0 release)"
    ....
    we are like 20+(figurative= a lot) versions of simc into this expac

    You are right in saying that we should never trust simC 100%. But as i said 3 times now, crit will always better than haste as fire.
    Last edited by stX3; 2013-03-22 at 05:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    I have a tendency to take what ever lhivera says as pure bullshit so ... He's been out of touch for a loooong time. Also i love that they are questioning the fact that a mage did 100-160k dps lol.... should be pretty standard dps.
    He's a developer of the mage simcraft module... lol

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Tbh at that item lvl you will most likely do more dps as frost.

    And no, Haste is never getting better than crit in fire spec, if anything it devalues to a point in ilvl where mastery is better than haste so it becomes crit>mastery>haste instead of haste>mastery
    SimC actually says that haste > mastery in fire. Atleast at my ilvl "510".

    Also, I suppose it depends of the ticks of combustion, nether tempest, etc...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pocharlies View Post
    SimC actually says that haste > mastery in fire. Atleast at my ilvl "510".

    Also, I suppose it depends of the ticks of combustion, nether tempest, etc...
    Thats what he said.

    But there's certainly a time when we'll have so much haste, thats mastery will be slightly ahead, "maybe".

    Otherwise, Crit > Haste > Mast.
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  11. #11
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Thats what he said.

    But there's certainly a time when we'll have so much haste, thats mastery will be slightly ahead, "maybe".

    Otherwise, Crit > Haste > Mast.
    Except Crit simply takes our Mastery and doubles (or higher) it directly.

    (NOTE: MASTERY NUMBERS ARE FABRICATED. DO NOT QUOTE ME AND START POSTING RATINGS TO RATINGS.)
    Think about it. Doing a Fireball for 50k with 20% mastery will yield a 10k (TOTAL) Ignite. Critting a Fireball for 100k with a 10% Mastery will yield, ready for this? A 10k IGNITE.

    On top of higher damage, critting also gives us Heating Up/Hot Streaks.

    Until we get close to the hard cap for Crit, Mastery will ALWAYS be our worst stat. Haste at some point COULD be worth more, but Mastery won't surpass either.


    (Granted, critting a Fireball for 100k with a 20% mastery build will yield a higher Ignite, but the chances of getting crits would be so much slimmer)

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  12. #12
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I really wish Simcraft would just go away.

    It gives me such a headache because people don't know enough before they use it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DeathDefier View Post
    He's a developer of the mage simcraft module... lol
    A not The developer?. and either way as i said he is way out of touch with the actual live game, if you read enough of he's comments you would know..
    the fact that he is only playing one spec but talks on behalf of the entire community + is raiding on below casual level if he is even raiding at all(lfr does not count!)
    if he is The developer i guess it makes sense why SimC for mages have been so out of wack this expac(combustion on 12k ignite? lol..)

    And if he is a developer why is it he states "last i knew (5.0 release)" on the 8th of march 2013? ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Except Crit simply takes our Mastery and doubles (or higher) it directly.

    (NOTE: MASTERY NUMBERS ARE FABRICATED. DO NOT QUOTE ME AND START POSTING RATINGS TO RATINGS.)
    Think about it. Doing a Fireball for 50k with 20% mastery will yield a 10k (TOTAL) Ignite. Critting a Fireball for 100k with a 10% Mastery will yield, ready for this? A 10k IGNITE.

    On top of higher damage, critting also gives us Heating Up/Hot Streaks.

    Until we get close to the hard cap for Crit, Mastery will ALWAYS be our worst stat. Haste at some point COULD be worth more, but Mastery won't surpass either.


    (Granted, critting a Fireball for 100k with a 20% mastery build will yield a higher Ignite, but the chances of getting crits would be so much slimmer)
    Man you make little sence..
    I/he never said mastery>crit, i said at some point mastery will be > haste Or at least haste=mastery. So why are you saying stuff like "but the chances of getting crits would be so much slimmer" when i specifically said that crit will always be our best stat. seriously did you read anything in this thread before you went on CAPSLOCK and Bold rampage?

    Also if your gonna do the whole imaginary fireball hit for X with 20% mastery ignite= Y, while fireball crit for X with mastery 10% ignite = Y. At least compare apples with apples...

    and no, mastery will not always be our worst stat. It competes just fine with haste after breakpoints.

  14. #14
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    But without Dragon9897 how would the mage community manifest its hatred for the class? He's pure anger and rage all balled up in one mighty molten ball of fiery mage fury.

    Mastery for fire is similar to frost, it's so subtle that it's discounted. Is it properly represented in simcraft? No clue. But, my Water Ele has gone from 11k waterbolts to 17k waterbolts just from gaining mastery that I couldn't avoid in gear.

    Stats are good. Don't hate stats. Keep getting stats.

    Also Lhivera is more in touch than you guys realize.

  15. #15
    The Patient royals's Avatar
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    SimC has always had the oddity of overvaluing haste when you are close to an attainable "Haste Cap". Happened to me this morning, got a new hit/crit belt, lost a bunch of haste, SimC told me that int>haste=crit>mastery, put my haste belt back on and resimmed, Int>crit>haste(by a lot)>mastery. It was the extra combustion tick which it really wanted me to have. Remember that those values that it gives your are really just for the NEXT point of stats you get what that value would be worth, not your overall value of your stats.

    That is why you have to take SimC with a grain of salt, its looking at the next point of stat you are going to add and weighting it for you, not the WHOLE next piece of gear. To find out what that will do to your weightings you need to equip said gear, gem/enchant/forge then reload your toon into SimC and resim. Compare results and there you go!
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  16. #16
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Are people unaware of http://wowcalculator.com/#mage_frost ?

    It's just going to be helpful to reach breakpoints then evaluate the other stats. Frost has it easy, but it's a little less clear for fire. I still advise getting Combustion & NT tick plateaus if you're close.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by royals View Post
    SimC has always had the oddity of overvaluing haste when you are close to an attainable "Haste Cap".
    This is correct, and the default delta in SimC (1k I think? I forget if there's an option to change it) is so large that it's very likely to push you above/below haste breakpoints, which tends to make it overvalue haste. That said, mastery is generally going to be (slightly) weaker than haste for fire because it has approximately the same conversion rate but affects a smaller portion of your damage.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Are people unaware of http://wowcalculator.com/#mage_frost ?
    i am, but personally use https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...r=false&gid=39
    And use totemspot lists if i need to know the % haste.

    and i totally agree on the evaluate mastery vs haste each time you reach a new breakpoint, it is kind of what i am trying to say. Even though haste is not all about breakpoints either, the dps increase of haste is a lot more linear than one would think.


    And about Lhivera, you are properly right that my judgement is a bit harsh. Its just hard not to, considering some of he's comments. In general i take he's input as id take simC results; better go double check my self.


    and LoL dont know why i never checked your frost mage flow chart before, but it made me crack thx for that.

  19. #19
    Keyboard Turner
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    Sorry guys, like I said I'm new to the forum thing. Also, I can't post any links because I'm brand new lol. My character name is Pyrojack on Garona(US) though.

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