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  1. #1

    2 healing ToT (10 man)

    In the past we have focused on 2 healing most of the content that was thrown at us even when it was optimal with 3. With this new patch and new raid we've been noticing that our paladin is lacking and been having to 3 heal a lot of things to get content down. I was wondering if there has been a nerf or if maybe they just don't pair well with our other healer (Rdruid). Does anyone have experience with 2 healing the bosses in ToT up to at least jikun/durumu as a Hpaladin? If so who are you healing with? Are you overgeared for the content (515+ ilvl)? I got the feeling that a resto druid and a holy paladin should be really strong together with the diversity of heals being used but maybe this is wrong, could someone possibly help me sort through this?

  2. #2
    I'm a holy pala healing with a resto druid as my secondary healer, and we seem to be fine. I don't have any logs to compare - but most bosses we can handle two man. Sometimes we bring in our spriest for healing, but not very often. We are at Durumu now. My ilvl is 505, so I wouldnt say that I outgear the bosses. I think my druid's ilvl is the same.

    What bosses are you having trouble with? Holy pala is in a really good place right now, but of course the raid has to know about his limitations. His AoE heal is not very good if you are not stacked fx. Also is he utilizing his talents optimally? Hammer is really good for the first boss, but on Horridon and Tortos Holy Prism is far superior. Also Hand of Purity vs. 2x Hand of Sac/Prot is a game changer. Where does he have trouble, and do you have any logs we can analyze?

  3. #3
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ky...m/healingDone/

    feel free to check our other logs that's just the one with the fights in question.

    I believe we had to 3 heal council, tortos and megaera. Megaera seems reasonable though the other ones I'm not so sure. I am not even sure if we tried 2 healing ji-kun. But I think it should be possible with a strong platform healer and egg healer. Maybe not

  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    I believe it is the same as other raids. Some encounters are 2 healable and some 3 healed. It also depends on the overall gear of the group. I 2 healed Lei Shen 10m(hpal/monk), it wasn't hard.

  5. #5
    you can easy 2 heal full ToT normal , onyl Durumu Primodius and Iron Quon can be a bit hard but ToT normal is easy with 2 heals

  6. #6
    Well, does it have to do with group composition? Should a pally and Druid be able to 2 heal it without problems? Can you see any problems in the log?

    Also, it's nice to know that it's 2-heal able in general but knowing that you did lei Shen with a monk isn't really helpful for our situation.

  7. #7
    the only fight we did not 2heal was megaera the first week after release, so before all the nerfs, hpally + resto sham

  8. #8
    I two healed Duru and Primordius last night with me as disc (510) and a resto druid (497).

  9. #9
    I appreciate all the replys but I'm specifically interested in people who have experience with the fight 2 healing as druid/pally or disc/pally.

  10. #10
    I have a few guess as to why your paly healer is under-performing:
    - He's use a lot of light of dawn in fights. Take Council of Elders for example. This is not an extremely AoE damage fight, of course there are some phases but the majority of the time the damage is mostly spikey random damage where EF is excellent for. Jinrokh is another example where it is good to weave in EF with light of dawn.
    - Switching beacon of light on tank-swap fights is necessary, a fight like Jin'rokh for example, I know there's at least more than one tank swap if you're spending 4+ minutes on it.
    - If his healing is lacking he should be making use of all his cooldowns. Divine favor was used once in a whole night of attempts. The cooldown of the Jade Figurine trinket is 1 minute. My guess is at 11,500 spirit (raid buffed), he is having mana issues. Therefore he needs to either macro this trinket to a spell or remember to use it on cooldown. The new trinket from the shado-pan is miles better than jade figurine and slightly better than spirits of the sun (496) depending on the length of the fight.
    - I wouldn't say this is a huge contributing factor, but both your druid and priest who sometimes heal with him have 505 ilvl. Your paladin has 500. He's therefore missing out on a good chunk of spell power which in all of our rabid fervor to gem spirit is sometimes forgotten.
    On all of our progression fights, my guild 3 healed. This decreases the penalty from making mechanics failures (at times). We've not even closely reached a block in terms of enrage timers by 3 healing. I (holy paly) healed with a disc priest in 5.0/5.1 and some fights in 5.2 to try it out. There should be not clash or anything between classes. Resto druids got better with the patch so on fights with constant AoE damage, they might do better. All in all, the damage you heal during down time which is the only time I can think of that healers are actually stepping over each other's shoes in terms of absorb shields, is of very little important to the periods of heavy damage where it doesn't matter what classes you have because people need healing, not hitting that 100% mark.

  11. #11
    We run holy paladin/disc priest in our 10m guild. We haven't seen anything to suggest that Holy paladin heals were nerfed. If anything, as our holy paladin gets more gear (he's currently ~505 I believe), he's been dominating our healing meters. We ran with a resto druid as our 3rd off-heals for a week and currently use our elemental shaman as a 3rd healer option when necessary. In both scenarios, I haven't noticed a significant impact on the paladin's heals. If anything, I would imagine the druid's heals would suffer since paladin/priest heals have a ton of absorb.

    Here's one of our WoL. I'm not really familiar with the site so hopefully I linked to the right page, haha.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5724&e=6143

    To give you some background: Our guild isn't super geared. I think our guild's average ilevel is ~504 now. We're currently 6/12 and feel pretty confident 2 healing all fights so far except maybe Megara. A ton of AoE damage. We haven't had any attempts on Durumu yet, but I assume that'll be a 3 heal fight as well.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kubuntu View Post
    you can easy 2 heal full ToT normal , onyl Durumu Primodius and Iron Quon can be a bit hard but ToT normal is easy with 2 heals
    Wait, you think it's hard to 2heal durumu/primordius but not Megaera...? >_>

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlolz View Post
    Wait, you think it's hard to 2heal durumu/primordius but not Megaera...? >_>
    I was going to say something about this <.< we currently are 2 healing durumu (haven't gotten him yet) but megaera was a kick in the teeth even with 3 healers the first few attempts until we worked out CD rotation. Monikasun, thanks for the great reply, I'm going to relay this information back to our healers and see if we can get anywhere.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-t1...?s=8967&e=9440 Here is our megaera kill
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5s...?s=5951&e=6451 and this is our ji-kun kill

    Maybe those extra logs will help people get a better idea of our healers.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-21 at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    - If his healing is lacking he should be making use of all his cooldowns. Divine favor was used once in a whole night of attempts. The cooldown of the Jade Figurine trinket is 1 minute. My guess is at 11,500 spirit (raid buffed), he is having mana issues.
    He is indeed having mana issues, normally oom much faster than either the disc priest or the druid

  14. #14
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drkblade View Post
    Well, does it have to do with group composition? Should a pally and Druid be able to 2 heal it without problems? Can you see any problems in the log?

    Also, it's nice to know that it's 2-heal able in general but knowing that you did lei Shen with a monk isn't really helpful for our situation.

    Composition definitely plays a part because other classes/specs bring raid defensive/healing cooldowns that would alleviate some of the pressure on the healers. When we two healed lei-shen, pretty much everyone in the group could self soak static shock (as long as RNG didn't give it to them back to back).

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Bormes's Avatar
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    Honestly I say have your priest disc heal almost every fight with your pally and druid during progression unless you're having trouble with berserk timers but that really shouldn't be an issue in normals unless you're carrying some dps. You won't lose an overwhelming amount of dps having the priest go disc, but you will gain a lot of heals and raid stability with all the absorbs. Especially since this is progression, you want to be able to have the most time alive to work mechanics, and once you get mechanics down, if you find you're hitting berserk, then pull the extra healer because now at least you have mechanics down and overall raid dmg will be less due to ppl doing the fight correctly. Like I said though, 2 heals + a 0.5 healer/dps disc and you should almost never hit berserk unless you're carrying some dpsers in normals.

    Once you have bosses on farm, its another story, but your pally healer is probably having trouble learning fights while maintaining a raid taking an amount of dmg in that is a lot greater than it should be due to increased mistakes made by players during progression and not knowing the fights entirely. Allowing players, especially healers to learn fights in a more stable fashion will likely help your progression quite a bit. Imo it's always better to go into a new fight with too many heals and remove one later, than go in with too few heals, blame the healers all night while wiping, having crappy attempts, get emotions flaring, and then finally decide to add one. Basically the prior gives you more solid attempts for the time you put in.

    Another thing that is big is to have a raid environment that allows people to discuss problems with the fights without hostility and throwing the blame card around. This post leads me to believe your group is one who likes to throw the blame card around when things aren't going as smooth as you'd like, which just isn't constructive. As a healer, I know it's very hard to step up and say "I can't heal you guys through this" no matter how factual that statement is; we have our own pride telling us we can heal anything, but even more than that when you say something like that, no matter how factual it is and unrelated to you the individual but the strategy for example, if your part of a raid group that likes to throw the blame card around, all the sudden every time some1 dies you'll now get blamed for not healing hard enough. If you've been raiding with this pally, and you know he's a good healer, then it probably is not him at least not entirely. Pally healing has not changed since 5.0 so if all the sudden he's underperforming its likely an issue with the raid comp or the encounter, not the individual. If you've been concerned with his healing from the get-go, than you really shouldn't have waited till progression to start looking at him more closely. But if you know he's a good healer, then trust him, not the numbers, because numbers can be deceptive especially during wipes, and look for other problems. Honestly if you're feeling the need to 2-heal EVERY fight, then it sounds like your really compensating for some bad dps, and if your gonna be passing the blame card around, perhaps you send it in that direction as well. You've shifted much of the load from DPS to heals, and now you want to blame the healer, just doesn't seem fair or constructive.
    Last edited by Bormes; 2013-03-22 at 03:36 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Drkblade View Post
    He is indeed having mana issues, normally oom much faster than either the disc priest or the druid
    Paladins are MUCH harder to play mana efficiently than, for example, a disc priest. I won't get into why that is so you'll just have to trust me.

    On that Magaera kill you posted, it really doesn't look like he's doing anything wrong. He could bring his overhealing down, but its not a huge deal. it may be that reaction time and prioritization is an issue if anything - it looks like he has general healing down fine.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Paladins are MUCH harder to play mana efficiently than, for example, a disc priest. I won't get into why that is so you'll just have to trust me.
    It's easy to run into mana trouble as a pally if there's a lot of damage your free heals don't cover and you're not running with either a priest or a resto shaman for their mana burst cooldowns. I've heard they fixed the issue with meleeing for mana not working when there are a lot of Eternal Flame ticks up, so on fights where you can be in melee, make sure he's meleeing the boss with auto attack.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormes View Post
    Honestly if you're feeling the need to 2-heal EVERY fight, then it sounds like your really compensating for some bad dps, and if your gonna be passing the blame card around, perhaps you send it in that direction as well. You've shifted much of the load from DPS to heals, and now you want to blame the healer, just doesn't seem fair or constructive.
    It has nothing to do with need. We want to 2 heal, it's fun. Other than our trials we have no need at all to compensate for DPS. I feel that 2 healing makes it so people have to play better to learn fights more quickly to take the stress away from the healers. While we do analyze every fight and see what's wrong and state it, I don't feel we throw blame around.

    And how exactly were we supposed to look at him on a progression level when he did hardly any progression with us last tier? I understand that atonement healing means we lose very little dps but it's not really the point. Allowing people the leeway to slack on boss abilities because there is a third healer to make up for mistakes like that just allows players to become lazy (maybe not all players, but mine seem to act as so) instead of teaching them to avoid all possible damage.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by kubuntu View Post
    you can easy 2 heal full ToT normal , onyl Durumu Primodius and Iron Quon can be a bit hard but ToT normal is easy with 2 heals
    Those are all on the easier side of the 2 heal fights...If anything the only fight that seems to "need" 3 healers is Maegara

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Drkblade View Post
    It has nothing to do with need. We want to 2 heal, it's fun.
    It doesn't sound like it's fun. You've come on the forums to complain it isn't really working.

    In my 10 man we generally three heal, with the third healer usually doing considerably less healing, but is there for when things get dicey.

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