1. #1

    PvP Power will fix it! < Where does this weird notion come from?

    So in all honesty. Whenever someone brings up the extreme disparity between 5.2 heroic/heroic thunderforged and T2 items some people roll into the chat and scream something about how "PvP Power" will "fix" it in the same way people claimed for the longest time resilience would do it and we all know it never did!

    They completly ignore the gross difference in main stats, they completly ignore the fact that the survivability DPS give up when using PvE off set pieces/weapons is tiny especially after the resilience nerf, they completly ignore the fact that often the offset pieces give MORE PvP Power/Defense when using the right gems (Raden ring gives around 500 more strenght and 60 more PvP power when using a blue gem...), they completly ignore that PvP power is halved for healers and thus other stats such as intelligence are often superior alongside a great many other things.

    Now with upgrades for PvE being far cheaper and coming back in 5.2, how the hell can anyone justify or even defend this?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    So in all honesty. Whenever someone brings up the extreme disparity between 5.2 heroic/heroic thunderforged and T2 items some people roll into the chat and scream something about how "PvP Power" will "fix" it in the same way people claimed for the longest time resilience would do it and we all know it never did!

    They completly ignore the gross difference in main stats, they completly ignore the fact that the survivability DPS give up when using PvE off set pieces/weapons is tiny especially after the resilience nerf, they completly ignore the fact that often the offset pieces give MORE PvP Power/Defense when using the right gems (Raden ring gives around 500 more strenght and 60 more PvP power when using a blue gem...), they completly ignore that PvP power is halved for healers and thus other stats such as intelligence are often superior alongside a great many other things.

    Now with upgrades for PvE being far cheaper and coming back in 5.2, how the hell can anyone justify or even defend this?
    I think you're right when it comes to weapons, but the resilience sacrifice by using PvE armor is too significant.

  3. #3
    If you think resilience doesn't fix it, try fighting someone in your PvE gear. The way PvP stats work is a direct linear scale to damage done and taken, and with a higher coefficient than MOST classes scale with every other stat, with the exception of some class mechanics working directly around a secondary in a specific way (take crit proccing for Holy Paladins as example) Most of the people making this argument for PvP power above all else are DPS classes however, and are relying on the straight damage scaling to kill people quickly within CC, basically blowing someone up during a cooldown before they have time to counter because CC, a strategy that works better with Power than other secondaries because the multiplier from Power applies after the boosts from cooldowns such as skull banner, multiplicatively, resulting in making cooldowns even more effective.

    As for offset pieces being better stats, remember that many PvP off-set items cannot be enchanted, and some of them not even gemmed, which makes the higher cost of set items valid.

    In the end it comes down to Blizzard lowering the normal statistics on pvp items too keep them out of high-end raiding, and then upping the pvp stats to compensate. For this to not lead to ridiculous numbers like 1000 resilience on a ring, the stats have to scale quite well, and as far as gems in MoP go, any secondary is worth exactly the same, or twice a primary, so 320 Power will always beat 320 of any other secondary. The two gems are only arbitrarily equivalent in number, not scaling.

  4. #4
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    I hope that no pve upgrades work in pvp, I mean the difference of the elite pvp gear and upgraded thunderforged gear is going to be huge....
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I hope that no pve upgrades work in pvp, I mean the difference of the elite pvp gear and upgraded thunderforged gear is going to be huge....
    You just have to consider if that 1 piece is X amount of dps increase over the percent of pvp power on an item (keeping in mind that burst and sustained damage have two different meanings and are relative to certain situations.) I don't think that gap is large enough on the normal pieces (although the weapons and trinkets may still be a factor.)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by AcrobaticMegalodon View Post
    I think you're right when it comes to weapons, but the resilience sacrifice by using PvE armor is too significant.
    No, that is the entire point. You can swap out several items gaining a huge advantage stat wise without an significant loss of resilience or PvP power. In fact some items are BETTER when gemmed right. The Ra-Den ring for example makes you lose around 260 resilience which is a bad joke while you actually GAIN PvP power and a huge chunk of main stats.
    Same for the mail belts especially heroic thunderforged ones. You can gem three resilience gems into those giving you the same survivability while losing pvp power worth around 0,2-0,3% more healing while gaining a HUGE chunk of int, spirit and other stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    If you think resilience doesn't fix it, try fighting someone in your PvE gear. The way PvP stats work is a direct linear scale to damage done and taken, and with a higher coefficient than MOST classes scale with every other stat, with the exception of some class mechanics working directly around a secondary in a specific way (take crit proccing for Holy Paladins as example) Most of the people making this argument for PvP power above all else are DPS classes however, and are relying on the straight damage scaling to kill people quickly within CC, basically blowing someone up during a cooldown before they have time to counter because CC, a strategy that works better with Power than other secondaries because the multiplier from Power applies after the boosts from cooldowns such as skull banner, multiplicatively, resulting in making cooldowns even more effective.

    As for offset pieces being better stats, remember that many PvP off-set items cannot be enchanted, and some of them not even gemmed, which makes the higher cost of set items valid.

    In the end it comes down to Blizzard lowering the normal statistics on pvp items too keep them out of high-end raiding, and then upping the pvp stats to compensate. For this to not lead to ridiculous numbers like 1000 resilience on a ring, the stats have to scale quite well, and as far as gems in MoP go, any secondary is worth exactly the same, or twice a primary, so 320 Power will always beat 320 of any other secondary. The two gems are only arbitrarily equivalent in number, not scaling.
    It's not about completly exchanging the PvP gear for PvE but certain parts, often gemmed only for PvP Power or Resilience they'll give you vastly superior stats while ALSO giving you better survivability/dmg modificators. PvP Power for example is a bad stat for healers altough many people don't really realize it because it's effectivity is halved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimeir View Post
    You just have to consider if that 1 piece is X amount of dps increase over the percent of pvp power on an item (keeping in mind that burst and sustained damage have two different meanings and are relative to certain situations.) I don't think that gap is large enough on the normal pieces (although the weapons and trinkets may still be a factor.)
    Wrong, take a look at the heroic thunderforged strenght ring, add upgrade level two and put a pvp power gem in it. You can around 500+ strenght, 1k or more stamina and a lot of other stats while ALSO gaining 60 pvp power over the PvP Ring while giving up pretty much nothing. And don't forget that PvP power from armor and other pieces is going to scale with PvE items just the same increasing their dmg even further.

  7. #7
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimeir View Post
    You just have to consider if that 1 piece is X amount of dps increase over the percent of pvp power on an item (keeping in mind that burst and sustained damage have two different meanings and are relative to certain situations.) I don't think that gap is large enough on the normal pieces (although the weapons and trinkets may still be a factor.)
    I just don't want to leave any questions up in the air, just don't make upgrades count in pvp. There should not even be any thought that pve might be better in pvp than pvp gear would.

    Just downscale the upgraded/thunderforge gear to the heroic/normal equivalent of the gear.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Just downscale the upgraded/thunderforge gear to the heroic/normal equivalent of the gear.
    Although this seems like a reasonable solution and they do have the tech, I would still put money on Blizzard just buffing pvp gear later on, or even doing something stupid like just buffing the power of PvP stats

  9. #9
    Just make it so that thunderforged gear reduces your resilience by like 2% per piece and have PvP gems don't work when socketed into thunderforged gear. Not sure how hard the coding would be but it would certainly kill its use in PvP stone dead.
    Last edited by matthias9742; 2013-03-22 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #10
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Yeah PvP Power and Resil is a failure in a game where PVE gear has a 50 ilvl advantage. The amount of Power theyd have to add on is retarded.

    They have scaling tech, they should use it. PVE Gear is scaled down to Honor ilvl in PvP instances. PvP Gear is scaled down to LFR gear in PVE instances. That solves every gear issue except procs, which they could disable in PVE or vice versa. Then they could even toss out Resil and Power as a stat, and just have a base resil which would help promote players trying the other side of the game.

    The way they have gone about this is so stupid when they have the perfect scaling tools to fix it.
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  11. #11
    What's with T2 (elite) PvP gear? I can't find it on wowhead but didn't they say the progression this season is something like that:

    Step 1 - crafted
    Step 2 - lfr/honor gear
    Step 3 - valor points+regular raids/conquest points for T1 aka Tyrannical gear
    Step 4 - heroic raids/T2 aka elite gear

    So we get our T2 gear after earning 25000 conquest points this season, allowing us to buy not only ~512 pvp weapons but also ~ 506 elite gear which should be able to compete with heroic raid gear thanks to power/res.

    But one problem is the progression speed: You can get lucky and a heroic thunderforged twohander from Jin Rokh this ID (and last week as well) while you have to wait at least 7 weeks to get your T2 weapon. Almost 7k dps and 30k maxdamge say "Hi!", let alone 8 additional itemlevel you can get as soon as 5.3 is released via upgrading.

    Deleth (OP) made a good point with sockets, most pvp offpieces like ring/neck don't have any while you find them on most pve gear due to how item budget works for pve. A 320 res or power gem can make up for a lot, letting the pve piece bypass the pvp option on this slot easily.

  12. #12
    They either need to get over keeping the gear progression and make PvP tiers have very little difference and high ilvl, or stop crying about PvP gear being used to get into LFR (Looking at you ilvl reduction on honour gear) or really PvP is just never going to be anything but what it's always been from an late entry/low gear vs high gear situation.

  13. #13
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    Although this seems like a reasonable solution and they do have the tech, I would still put money on Blizzard just buffing pvp gear later on, or even doing something stupid like just buffing the power of PvP stats
    Battlegrounds, Rated Battlegrounds, and Arenas now have an ilevel cap. All gear will be scaled down to ilevel 496.
    Mwhahahahaha I was right! Atleast blizzard listened to me on this.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

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