Thread: Dk threat

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  1. #1

    Dk threat

    Iv cleared all of this expansion with a DK tank. I find that now going into Throne heroics and even through normal that my DK isnt holding threat. Its to the point on heroic jin'rohk that I every time he taunts I have to drop off for 20-30 seconds and never use keg smash while hes tanking which is a huge dps loss for the raid itself since that 2-3 minutes per encounter that I am sitting around twiddling my thumbs. Even through the full encounter hes doing ~50-60k dps compared to my 80+k. Im not worried about my personal dps but sitting back for 2-3 minutes is damage not done to the boss and has caused us to hit enrage timers in the past and I dont think that any tank should have to sit around doing nothing during a raid encounter.
    I dont know what else i can do because the boss switching back to me on any attempt is raid breaking and has caused us to wipe. Any advice on what we can do to solve this problem?

  2. #2
    Maybe as a Death Knight tank, he just sucks.

    I'm a DK tank, I hold threat just fine.

  3. #3
    Could it be that monk threat is just pretty OP atm, since you're using a lot more dps oriented gear than he is (agi / crit / haste..? i have no clue about monk itemization), while he is focusing on dodge / parry / mastery? Making your non-vengeance threat a lot higher than his.
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  4. #4
    Hes been raiding on his DK since wrath through all relevant content so I dont see how with this 1 expansion his skill could drop so drastically. What are you raiding with and what kind of content? Im at 516 ilvl hes at 515 so its not like there is a huge gear discrepancy just not sure what we can do to remedy this seeing as I cant just drop him for low threat since when he does tank he does it well....just not when im attacking.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-22 at 09:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by elfox View Post
    Could it be that monk threat is just pretty OP atm, since you're using a lot more dps oriented gear than he is (agi / crit / haste..? i have no clue about monk itemization), while he is focusing on dodge / parry / mastery? Making your non-vengeance threat a lot higher than his.
    I agree that i have outrageous damage and avoidance but im sure other people raiding this tier with brm and dk tanks cant all be having this problem.

  5. #5
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    The thing you are looking at is nothing specials.

    Tank 1: geares for Hit/Exp/Haste and has a full stack of Vengeance
    Tank 2: geares for Mastery/Dodge/Parry and has no Vengeance

    Guess which of the tanks does more TpS?

    Possible solutions:
    1) Tank 1 swaps out of tank stance to lose the 500% threat bonus
    2) Tank 2 increases his damage output by going for hit/exp caps and using Fallen Crusader
    3) Tank 1 stops attacking for a short time and watches his threat (situational awareness > button mashing)
    4) Tank 2 gets replaced by someone that can play better

    I mean, there's also http://www.wowdb.com/spells/1038-hand-of-salvation that can help with transitions so with taunt and hand of salvation he gets up to ~15s to build up vengeance and you lose some during that time, so if he taunts again after the 10s of salvation he should easily be able to keep threat below your 110% until you need to taunt it back. though this requires a paladin and more coordination than the above ones.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mop View Post
    I dont know what else i can do because the boss switching back to me on any attempt is raid breaking and has caused us to wipe. Any advice on what we can do to solve this problem?
    Stop dpsing until your vengeance stack drops. Afterwards you can go.

  7. #7
    The problem you are experiencing is a very common problem for most DK tanks atm when tanking alongside a monk/druid/paladin, and even warriors to some extend. The problem is that as a DK you dont gain any properly survivalbility from getting hit/exp hardcap, and the mastery loss for doing so in current gear (ilvl 500-515) is so wast that you leave yourself vulnerable if you choose to do so. There is something you can do to counter this however. Tell your DK to spare his DRW until he taunts and then go all out on dps to gain some good threat while his vengeance builds up. The only tanking switch that should ever be a problem should be the first one, as later on in the fight the 10% you have to overhaul him by is far greater. Also DKs have 2 taunts they can chain in these scenarios.

    I would also like to add how I managed the fight against JinRohk heroic in ToT. I am a Dk tank and I am tanking besides a Druid. On that fight he starts because I, as a human, can break the first stun when thrown into the statue. When I taunt of him I generally (on this fight) hold back on my cds, because I know that him getting aggro for 1 attack is not gonna harm much - What I do to make sure I have aggro when the throw is going out, is that I taunt, wait for him to get aggro back, then use my DG - By now there is like 6-7 sec until stun so I wait a few sec, till like 2-3 sec until stun and then taunt - This makes sure that I have aggro when he throws the tank and then I break the stun, taunt back - use all cds (DRW, ERW) inside the pool (We use hero here aswell). Now I sit in the pool with some vengeance, hero and full cds + he has to stand outside the pool so there is no chance of me loosing aggro to the other tank here. Then after that sequence is over and the other tank has to taunt back, the threat by the time he taunts back should be so high that you can't out aggro him + The tank tanking will almost always be able to stand inside a pool for 50% dmg increase!

    For the time being we have had many occurences of he getting aggro back but it has yet to wipe us, and he never has to hold back. It sucks that you, as a DK, has to think about things like this (The recent dmg buff helps it alot tho), but it has to be done with the current way the game works for tanks.

    Hope this wall of text is of any help to you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by zer0xfr View Post
    The problem you are experiencing is a very common problem for most DK tanks atm when tanking alongside a monk/druid/paladin, and even warriors to some extend. The problem is that as a DK you dont gain any properly survivalbility from getting hit/exp hardcap, and the mastery loss for doing so in current gear (ilvl 500-515) is so wast that you leave yourself vulnerable if you choose to do so.
    So very wrong. I give up zero survivability getting hit/expertise capped and I am never "vulnerable" with a 514ilvl. You can still get hit/exp capped without sacrificing any Mastery. My tanking buddy is a Prot Warrior and I have never had issues pulling threat off him when needed. And this is a Prot Warrior that ranks on almost every fight and does amazing DPS for a Prot Warrior. If your having threat and survivability issues then you need to work on playing your class to it's full potential. I don't mean to bash your post zer0xfr but your making Blood DK's sound like a broken class and we aren't.
    Last edited by Sflame; 2013-03-22 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sflame View Post
    So very wrong. I give up zero survivability getting hit/expertise capped and I am never "vulnerable" with a 514ilvl. You can still get hit/exp capped without sacrificing any Mastery. My tanking buddy is a Prot Warrior and I have never had issues pulling threat off him when needed. And this is a Prot Warrior that ranks on almost every fight and does amazing DPS for a Prot Warrior. If your having threat and survivability issues then you need to work on playing your class to it's full potential. I don't mean to bash your post zer0xfr but your making Blood DK's sound like a broken class and we aren't.
    You always give up survivability to get hit/exp capped, since avoidance stats give far more than hit/exp. Prot warriors also pull, by far, the worst dps of any tank right now and even a mediocre brewmaster will outdps/threat an amazing warrior. You are also using the drw glyph, while saying that you have no threat issues, which is amusing considering how horrible it is.

    I don't think dks have massive threat issues that can't be solved by relative ease (if anything I have to sacrifice damage/get salvs to not pull damage from my co-tank, warrior) but your post is just wrong on so many levels.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-03-22 at 02:53 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    You always give up survivability to get hit/exp capped, since avoidance stats give far more than hit/exp. Prot warriors also pull, by far, the worst dps of any tank right now and even a mediocre brewmaster will outdps/threat an amazing warrior. You are also using the drw glyph, while saying that you have no threat issues, which is amusing considering how horrible it is.

    I don't think dks have massive threat issues that can't be solved by relative ease (if anything I have to sacrifice damage/get salvs to not pull damage from my co-tank, warrior) but your post is just wrong on so many levels.
    Every piece of gear on me has Mastery and my Hit/Exp is reforged from Crit and excess Dodge, which is horrible. So im giving up what survivability? Yeah no Blood DK ever uses DRW glyph (rolls eyes). Maybe your co-tank warrior buddy does mediocre brewmaster DPS and threat but don't categorize every prot warrior. Please do your homework next time Cookie and don't "be wrong on so many levels". Quite a hilarious post tbh.
    Last edited by Sflame; 2013-03-22 at 03:27 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mop View Post
    Iv cleared all of this expansion with a DK tank. I find that now going into Throne heroics and even through normal that my DK isnt holding threat. Its to the point on heroic jin'rohk that I every time he taunts I have to drop off for 20-30 seconds and never use keg smash while hes tanking which is a huge dps loss for the raid itself since that 2-3 minutes per encounter that I am sitting around twiddling my thumbs. Even through the full encounter hes doing ~50-60k dps compared to my 80+k. Im not worried about my personal dps but sitting back for 2-3 minutes is damage not done to the boss and has caused us to hit enrage timers in the past and I dont think that any tank should have to sit around doing nothing during a raid encounter.
    I dont know what else i can do because the boss switching back to me on any attempt is raid breaking and has caused us to wipe. Any advice on what we can do to solve this problem?
    Just let the DK pull first. Monk have crazy burst aggro with keg smash, and if you toss that shortly after his taunt while you have vengeance stacked but he does not, there is little chance he will hold aggro from you. Also, remind him to stagger both his normal taunt and Death Grip during times when you are creeping up the aggro table.

  12. #12
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    You always give up survivability to get hit/exp capped, since avoidance stats give far more than hit/exp. Prot warriors also pull, by far, the worst dps of any tank right now and even a mediocre brewmaster will outdps/threat an amazing warrior. You are also using the drw glyph, while saying that you have no threat issues, which is amusing considering how horrible it is.

    I don't think dks have massive threat issues that can't be solved by relative ease (if anything I have to sacrifice damage/get salvs to not pull damage from my co-tank, warrior) but your post is just wrong on so many levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sflame View Post
    Every piece of gear on me has Mastery and my Hit/Exp is reforged from Crit and excess Dodge, which is horrible. So im giving up what survivability? Yeah no Blood DK ever uses DRW glyph (rolls eyes). Maybe your co-tank warrior buddy does mediocre brewmaster DPS and threat but don't categorize every prot warrior. Please do your homework next time Cookie and don't "be wrong on so many levels". Quite a hilarious post tbh.
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    I'd like to make a cut in your mud slinging contest at this point. "You are wrong because I say so, lol at you" (yes, that is exaggeration but it's the vibe both of you give off) is nowhere near the quality of posts a discussion should have.

    Either go theorycrafting or compare logs, but don't start hitting each other with anectodal evidence and hearsay.

  13. #13
    Pool up rp before taunting, then taunt, rune strike, rune strike. However, unless you have threat issues (which you shouldn't at this point), you should not glyph drw. Also worthwhile to mention that dks have two taunts, so if you start falling behind on threat taunt again, by then you should be able to get a comfortable lead with vengeance.
    Last edited by spoolatarygos; 2013-03-22 at 04:46 PM.

  14. #14
    Do you have any hunters that could MD him or Rogues that could tricks him?
    You could ask him to glyph DRW as it helps with threat.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    The thing you are looking at is nothing specials.

    Tank 1: geares for Hit/Exp/Haste and has a full stack of Vengeance
    Tank 2: geares for Mastery/Dodge/Parry and has no Vengeance

    Guess which of the tanks does more TpS?

    Possible solutions:
    1) Tank 1 swaps out of tank stance to lose the 500% threat bonus
    2) Tank 2 increases his damage output by going for hit/exp caps and using Fallen Crusader
    3) Tank 1 stops attacking for a short time and watches his threat (situational awareness > button mashing)
    4) Tank 2 gets replaced by someone that can play better

    I mean, there's also http://www.wowdb.com/spells/1038-hand-of-salvation that can help with transitions so with taunt and hand of salvation he gets up to ~15s to build up vengeance and you lose some during that time, so if he taunts again after the 10s of salvation he should easily be able to keep threat below your 110% until you need to taunt it back. though this requires a paladin and more coordination than the above ones.
    Tell your DK tank to go hit/exp caps and FC enchant, the difference between enchants is minimal at best, it's more of a DPS gain for the raid which is important especially in 10s, and hit/exp are actually solid tanking stats.

    Mastery > Hit > Exp > Parry > Dodge

    50-60k DPS seems REALLY low for Jin'rokh as well, considering that (I don't raid no more, so correct me if I'm wrong) the boss hits like a truck and when you're not tanking the boss, you're able to stand in the puddle and do mad DEEPS. (Hits like a truck, meaning lots of vengeance).

    Link some logs of your DK tank, I saw a DK the other day that was using Death Coil, no Outbreak, and not keeping up diseases.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
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  16. #16
    SFlame - how is the DK Tank 4 set?

  17. #17
    @Nyanmaru. I'm sorry if I'm a bit harsh, I just didn't feel like his post warranted a massive amount of respect. I also thought that most of my statements were common knowledge, but I'll try to add a bit more basis for them now (I can add some more theorycrafting if you feel like that's necessary).

    Every piece of gear on me has Mastery and my Hit/Exp is reforged from Crit and excess Dodge, which is horrible.
    So im giving up what survivability?
    There are very few tank pieces that have crit on them, and what are you refering to by excess dodge? I assume that you mean that your dodge/parry values aren't balanced perfectly, but even if they aren't dodge adds far more survivability than hit/exp. So yes, you are giving up survivability. Capping hit and exp costs you 5100 secondary stats, and results in ~2% more survivability. Said 5100 secondary stats could instead have been used to increase your parry/dodge by ~5%, a far bigger survivability increase. That the added damage may be well worth the survivability loss is true, but it's a survivability loss regardless.

    Yeah no Blood DK ever uses DRW glyph (rolls eyes).
    Feel free to explain why you would gimp your damage with the drw glyph (especially in a 10 man setting, where a tanks dps very significant) when you, according to yourself, have zero threat issues. You lose 25% of your drw's damage which is ~3% of your damage (assuming that drw does 12% of your damage, which is quite easy to achive if you pool runes and don't keep drw on cd for long durations) in exchange for threat that, according to you: "I have never had issues pulling threat off him when needed", is entirely useless. Doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

    Maybe your co-tank warrior buddy does mediocre brewmaster DPS and threat but don't categorize every prot warrior. Please do your homework next time Cookie and don't "be wrong on so many levels". Quite a hilarious post tbh.
    Every single source shows prot warriors significantly below every other tank class. Look at raidbots or WoL rankings, prot warriors are at the bottom of the tanks in close to every fight.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...f_Thunder/dps/
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...00011111000000


    Regarding the dk 4 set it's an abyssmal survivability increase. It results in 90 runic power a minute=3 rune strikes=6 blood tap charges=just over half a DS/minute. Especially with the recent buffs to rune strike it's a significant dps increase though, and for 10 man you could argue that the trade-off in survivability (that you gain from using 2 pieces with mastery, over the tier set) might be worth it for the added dps (especially considering how rare the thunderforged pieces are here). I'd still never consider taking a tier piece apart from head/shoulders if a different raidmember wanted it though (almost every other set bonus is far better than ours). In 25 man I don't really see the additional tank damage being worth the survivability loss.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-03-22 at 05:30 PM.

  18. #18
    @Cookie - Im being the better man (and DK) and stepping away. Continue to be the all knowing source of power and knowledge in the DK universe. Cause it's common knowledge right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboyslol View Post
    SFlame - how is the DK Tank 4 set?
    I haven't had a chance to test the 4 set out yet. I got the Chest and Helm on lucky token rolls last night. Which is kinda weird since I had miserable luck with token rolls for T14.

  19. #19
    @Cookie - Im being the better man (and DK) and stepping away. Continue to be the all knowing source of power and knowledge in the DK universe. Cause it's common knowledge right?
    Cute, but as you might've noticed I provided basis for the 'common knowledge' as well. You really don't need to be all knowing to provide some basis for your arguments, I guess you simply don't have any basis? Maybe because all your arguments are opinions/anecdotes?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Cute, but as you might've noticed I provided basis for the 'common knowledge' as well. You really don't need to be all knowing to provide some basis for your arguments, I guess you simply don't have any basis? Maybe because all your arguments are opinions/anecdotes?
    You provided numbers that in a vacuum may sound cool and all but may have little value in practice.
    Avoidance is obviously better than accuracy to reduce incoming Auto-Attack damage.
    Avoidance does nothing against magical or otherwise unavoidable damage.
    Avoidance adds RNG while accuracy reduces/removes RNG.
    Avoidance does little to nothing against burst damage (which is what kills tanks).
    And in the long run more dps is probably more useful than slightly less damage taken.
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