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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreary View Post
    WoW's client/server is written in Java
    While I agree that the guy you were responding to was a moron, you are incorrect sir. WoW is definitely not written in Java - that's why you don't need the JRE and a high end computer to play it.

    Since it is compiled to native code (it can run on PC / Mac without special software needed to interpret it), it's most likely C/C++, and given its complexity, I would wager vital organs of my body that it's primarily C++. A Google search of the internets seems to agree, but ultimately, no one outside of Blizzard can know for sure.

    (I swear, if anyone says, "I have a private server so I know what language WoW is written in"....)

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreary View Post
    "Android is entirely Java, something they don't have tons of experience with. "

    WoW's client/server is written in Java.
    Nope. Java is an awful language for games. There are many reasons like:

    It's hard to use any low level instruction (games need good performance).
    It's not a native language so it has an extra layer which makes it slower (compared to C++).
    Oracle doesn't care about games.
    No control over the garbage collector.
    Lack of platforms (windows, android, what else?).
    It's really easy to decompile anything written in Java.
    Many companies already have a lot of stuffs written in C++.
    Java has a tiny game developer community when you compare it to C++.

    And many other reasons that I can't remember.
    Last edited by Thyranne; 2013-03-23 at 06:54 AM.

  3. #603
    Stood in the Fire
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    I am looking forward to this, far more interesting than a wow or diablo 3 expansion to me.

  4. #604
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    Looks neat. Just seems like a for-fun dealio with standard F2P marketing. It'll definitely make a bundle and gather a different kind of fanbase (there are more card playing nerds than people seem to want to admit).

  5. #605
    Epic! MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    I'm interested. Now I can participate in a TCG without having to sink a ton of money into it and hope I get lucky enough to get good cards.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyranne View Post
    Nope. Java is an awful language for games. There are many reasons like:

    It's hard to use any low level instruction (games need good performance).
    It's not a native language so it has an extra layer which makes it slower (compared to C++).
    Oracle doesn't care about games.
    No control over the garbage collector.
    Lack of platforms (windows, android, what else?).
    It's really easy to decompile anything written in Java.
    Many companies already have a lot of stuffs written in C++.
    Java has a tiny game developer community when you compare it to C++.

    And many other reasons that I can't remember.
    I presume you either really don't like Java or simply are not aware of what Java is in the development environment. Personally I'm not too fond of Java - it's too verbose for me and annoys me.... but that doesn't change the fact, that most of the community games are written in Java or Java/Erlang. And those games are currently a larger market than traditional ones. So saying that Java game dev community is tiny is... somewhat misinformed.

    If you compare Java to C++ - it's not that slower, especially if you go for cold, hard calculations, that are being repeated multiple times. JVM does miracles with optimization and sometimes Java simply blows C++ out of the water. And it doesn't matter if Oracle cares about games - languages are not made to support games, but to support features, that games also use. So argument about Oracle is somewhat misguided. Same with garbage collector - doesn't matter - Java is garbage collected and does clear resources pretty well. More useful would be direct control over memory and pointers, than GC.

    As for higher/lower level languages - Java is as high/low level as C++. C++ is implemented in C. Java is in JVM's code. While your argument is somewhat valid, it all depends on implementation. For example: EVE is written in Python (or well - their own implementation of Python), which is high level language written in C. And to be fair - it handles 1000+ players battle better than WoW ever handled 80 people battle. And if you go on the language levels - there's for example Go (written in C) that destroys most of other languages in terms of efficiency. It even beats C when concurrency steps in (hello online games), because it's implemented so well.

    Speaking of platforms - Java works everywhere, where JVM works. So... windows, OSX, Unix (including Android) - and that makes up for.... umm all of used languages? And with some small effort (usage of env vars etc) you can have one code, that will work on each platform without rewriting.


    To summarise - while Java might not be perfect to write games like WoW, it surely would do a decent work to run stuff like card game, because there are 35495893865 similar games in Java already there and working with communities around them. And while C/C++ is excellent language and widely used for clients/servers, there are times where it's not best - Erlang blows it out of the water for server side computing for example.

  7. #607
    I cannot believe some of these comments... The are so immature and silly!

    "Oh my god I can't believe it, this free game is a load of shit"

    ...Really? Don't play the damn thing, then. People expect SO much of gaming companies today, it's crazy. Anything they do and don't do, they are in the wrong and are a terrible Company.

    Cheer the hell up... I think it looks pretty neat, and will definitely be trying it out. I don't play traditional TGC's, but have a few of them on my iPad, which are pretty pants.
    Now there is one of the way, that I must say looks rather stunning, it's free, and it's in the Warcraft Universe.

    How can I not be happy?

  8. #608
    Hey guys, come play Warcraft, its this game like fantasy sorta thing where you do quests and its like pokemon and a bit like yu gi oh too.

    Yeah its really original and everyone loves it.

  9. #609
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    Honestly, with this coming out, I don't think I'll ever get anything done at work. I'll just sit on my iPad playing with my cards. :X

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke-Hex View Post
    I cannot believe some of these comments... The are so immature and silly!

    "Oh my god I can't believe it, this free game is a load of shit"

    ...Really? Don't play the damn thing, then. People expect SO much of gaming companies today, it's crazy. Anything they do and don't do, they are in the wrong and are a terrible Company.

    Cheer the hell up... I think it looks pretty neat, and will definitely be trying it out. I don't play traditional TGC's, but have a few of them on my iPad, which are pretty pants.
    Now there is one of the way, that I must say looks rather stunning, it's free, and it's in the Warcraft Universe.

    How can I not be happy?

    ^^^^^ All this. Im not into TCGs myself but think this game will get me to give it a serious try. We all know that , at the very least, when Blizzard does something , even if its shit , its still done with polish.

  11. #611
    As an avid card/board gamer, I'm pretty excited for this. Haters should reserve judgement until they try it, card games are great.

  12. #612
    I find it baffling that some people here are saying card games are either 'for little kids only' or even worse, claiming that 'nobody cares about or plays card games anymore'.

    Let me just iterate that Magic: The Gathering online reached an all-time-high recently, and even the offline equivalents of many top TCGs are experiencing high levels of popularity. Just because you don't partake in something and haven't done since you were a kid, it doesn't make it some universal fact that it's for kids or nobody plays it anymore.

  13. #613
    Mechagnome kojinshugi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KilpiBan View Post
    (Why do devs always keep not publishing games on Android tablets is beyond me.)
    Because Android tablets have wildly varying hardware configurations, screen resolutions, and aspect ratios. Since the graphics are 2D bitmaps, they're far harder to scale properly than your average 3D game.

    That means they're much harder to port and optimize, and therefore don't justify the cost of development, at least not initially, since the vast majority of gaming tablets are iPads. By gaming tablet I mean tablets owned by people who actually buy and play games.

    I'm quite sure they'll eventually port it, but as with most phone/tablet games, this will happen after the iOS version has been put on the market.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nsira View Post
    Hey guys, come play Warcraft, its this game like fantasy sorta thing where you do quests and its like pokemon and a bit like yu gi oh too.

    Yeah its really original and everyone loves it.
    Are you new to Blizzard games or something? No Blizzard IP since Lost Vikings has been "original" in any way. Warcraft was a Dune 2 reskin that copiously borrowed from Warhammer. Starcraft was a Warhammer 40k ripoff.

    Blizzard has always been about taking tried and true ideas and making them work better than ever in the medium of computer games.

    They're basically the PC equivalent of Gameloft.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 01:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CastSeven View Post
    While I agree that the guy you were responding to was a moron, you are incorrect sir. WoW is definitely not written in Java - that's why you don't need the JRE and a high end computer to play it.

    Since it is compiled to native code (it can run on PC / Mac without special software needed to interpret it), it's most likely C/C++, and given its complexity, I would wager vital organs of my body that it's primarily C++. A Google search of the internets seems to agree, but ultimately, no one outside of Blizzard can know for sure.

    (I swear, if anyone says, "I have a private server so I know what language WoW is written in"....)
    Every Blizzard game ever is written in C++, with the exception of SC2 menus (some fork of Flash) and WoW's UI (LUA/XML).
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by gorah View Post
    I presume you either really don't like Java or simply are not aware of what Java is in the development environment. Personally I'm not too fond of Java - it's too verbose for me and annoys me.... but that doesn't change the fact, that most of the community games are written in Java or Java/Erlang. And those games are currently a larger market than traditional ones. So saying that Java game dev community is tiny is... somewhat misinformed.

    If you compare Java to C++ - it's not that slower, especially if you go for cold, hard calculations, that are being repeated multiple times. JVM does miracles with optimization and sometimes Java simply blows C++ out of the water. And it doesn't matter if Oracle cares about games - languages are not made to support games, but to support features, that games also use. So argument about Oracle is somewhat misguided. Same with garbage collector - doesn't matter - Java is garbage collected and does clear resources pretty well. More useful would be direct control over memory and pointers, than GC.

    As for higher/lower level languages - Java is as high/low level as C++. C++ is implemented in C. Java is in JVM's code. While your argument is somewhat valid, it all depends on implementation. For example: EVE is written in Python (or well - their own implementation of Python), which is high level language written in C. And to be fair - it handles 1000+ players battle better than WoW ever handled 80 people battle. And if you go on the language levels - there's for example Go (written in C) that destroys most of other languages in terms of efficiency. It even beats C when concurrency steps in (hello online games), because it's implemented so well.

    Speaking of platforms - Java works everywhere, where JVM works. So... windows, OSX, Unix (including Android) - and that makes up for.... umm all of used languages? And with some small effort (usage of env vars etc) you can have one code, that will work on each platform without rewriting.


    To summarise - while Java might not be perfect to write games like WoW, it surely would do a decent work to run stuff like card game, because there are 35495893865 similar games in Java already there and working with communities around them. And while C/C++ is excellent language and widely used for clients/servers, there are times where it's not best - Erlang blows it out of the water for server side computing for example.
    A big part of EVE Online has been rewritten in C++ because Python was not up to the task at hand.

    Saying that a language likeJava is faster then a language that compiles directly into machine code makes you laughable. Oh yeah JVM uses heuristics, so guess what? Any programmer with two not dead braincells can use the same algortihms in C++ as well.

    The only advantage of Java is it's platform independency due to the JVM, and perhaps garbage collection.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Difuid View Post
    A big part of EVE Online has been rewritten in C++ because Python was not up to the task at hand.

    Saying that a language likeJava is faster then a language that compiles directly into machine code makes you laughable. Oh yeah JVM uses heuristics, so guess what? Any programmer with two not dead braincells can use the same algortihms in C++ as well.

    The only advantage of Java is it's platform independency due to the JVM, and perhaps garbage collection.
    Garbage collector is far from being an advantage if you wanna make games and you have no control over it.

    And having a good programmer is far more important than the language but when the language doesn't allow you to do some important things like use a low level instruction it becomes a big problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by gorah View Post
    I presume you either really don't like Java or simply are not aware of what Java is in the development environment. Personally I'm not too fond of Java - it's too verbose for me and annoys me.... but that doesn't change the fact, that most of the community games are written in Java or Java/Erlang. And those games are currently a larger market than traditional ones. So saying that Java game dev community is tiny is... somewhat misinformed.
    Wrong, I really like Java. But I know that Java is an awful language for games. And I said it's tiny compared to C++ community.

    Quote Originally Posted by gorah View Post
    If you compare Java to C++ - it's not that slower, especially if you go for cold, hard calculations, that are being repeated multiple times. JVM does miracles with optimization and sometimes Java simply blows C++ out of the water. And it doesn't matter if Oracle cares about games - languages are not made to support games, but to support features, that games also use. So argument about Oracle is somewhat misguided. Same with garbage collector - doesn't matter - Java is garbage collected and does clear resources pretty well. More useful would be direct control over memory and pointers, than GC.
    When you have a big game like WoW it is extremly important that you can have control over the memory. Also, if you have a code written in Java and another written in C++ and they are exactly the same, C++ will always be faster. You can test it yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by gorah View Post
    As for higher/lower level languages - Java is as high/low level as C++. C++ is implemented in C. Java is in JVM's code. While your argument is somewhat valid, it all depends on implementation. For example: EVE is written in Python (or well - their own implementation of Python), which is high level language written in C. And to be fair - it handles 1000+ players battle better than WoW ever handled 80 people battle. And if you go on the language levels - there's for example Go (written in C) that destroys most of other languages in terms of efficiency. It even beats C when concurrency steps in (hello online games), because it's implemented so well.
    A poorly written code in C will always be worse than a good code in Java. But when your language does not give you full control over everything it becomes a big problem. I can't comment here because I don't know anything about Eve.

    Quote Originally Posted by gorah View Post
    Speaking of platforms - Java works everywhere, where JVM works. So... windows, OSX, Unix (including Android) - and that makes up for.... umm all of used languages? And with some small effort (usage of env vars etc) you can have one code, that will work on each platform without rewriting.
    So, can you run Java in a Snes, N64, Wii, XBox, etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by gorah View Post
    To summarise - while Java might not be perfect to write games like WoW, it surely would do a decent work to run stuff like card game, because there are 35495893865 similar games in Java already there and working with communities around them. And while C/C++ is excellent language and widely used for clients/servers, there are times where it's not best - Erlang blows it out of the water for server side computing for example.
    For a card game ya it shouldn't really matter the language. You hardly have to use low level instructions or hardware. For a big game like WoW, no way.
    Last edited by Thyranne; 2013-03-23 at 05:00 PM.

  16. #616
    Stood in the Fire bledgor's Avatar
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    The sheer amount of douche statements, self-entitlement, and arrogance in this thread reminds me of why I should NEVER have hope in humanity....

    It looks fun, something to do while I wait for queues, have a small amount of free time, or get bored of SC2/WoW/dota 2/whatever I am playing currently. Its FTP so no reason I won't pick it up.

  17. #617
    It's threads like this that remind me why I don't often post here. From what I've seen of the MMO-C community since I've been here there's a majority of loud-mouthed bigots who never give anything a chance before slamming it into the ground, and there's so much misinformation being thrown into this topic that it's making me dizzy.

    First of all, let's play a hypothetical game for a second: imagine that Blizzard hadn't made this announcement at all. You didn't hear about Hearthstone; it does not exist and will not exist at any point in the future. In what way has your life been changed? In what way have you been inconvenienced or had your time wasted in any way, shape or form? The correct answer for those playing at home is that it has not.

    This is exactly the same effect if you choose not to play Hearthstone when it comes out. It will not affect you in any way. It won't change anything about any game you actually do play. It won't force you to spend any money. It will literally have no impact on you whatsoever. So why is everyone spewing bile about it before it's even gone into BETA?

    For those saying it's going to flop because "card games are for kids" or "card games were popular...in the 90s". Thank you. Thank you for implying that a 28-year-old man is a kid. Thank you for implying that one of my major passions stopped being relevant 20 years ago. I had no idea that something I am currently invested in was a complete waste of my time and money! Thank god I have you guys to tell me what I can and can't like or enjoy.

    Seriously, the best way you can show that you're not going to be interested in this is to completely ignore it. You think your attempted blasting of the game is going to accomplish anything? The mere fact that you're all putting so much effort into badmouthing it shows that, in some way, you do in fact care about it. If you didn't, you wouldn't be saying anything.

    I'm not saying this game is going to be amazing, or any good at all. It looks really neat, and I say that as both a WoW fan and someone who enjoys TCGs. If I didn't like WoW or TCGs...well, I wouldn't be commenting on a topic about a WoW TCG, would I?

  18. #618
    The Patient gorocz's Avatar
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    Seriously people... How old are you if the first thing that comes to your mind, when someone mentions a TCG is Yu-Gi-Oh? MtG, anyone?
    By the way, anyone else noticed that they misspelled Alexstrasza's name? :-)

  19. #619
    Looks kinda fun.. but nothing special really.

    What BUGS ME though is that in their video they're saying that they are proud of 'taking a risk'... Fuck off guys; you're a, probably, multi-billion dollar company and this thing probably cost less than 200k to make. Besides that you're cashing on probably the biggest video-game IP currently on the market with game mechanics that are also proven in the form of the 'real' WoW TCG.
    There is virtually no risk involved in any part of this production except maybe for a few 'fans' who're upset that you're not releasing Warcraft 4 or something.

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarl Balgruuf View Post
    You do realize that completely different people handle this sort of stuff right?
    You do realize that the money they pay to the slobs working on Hearthstone could go to something useful, right?

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