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  1. #1

    Haste cap for SV

    Another topic about "what top hunters do" ;] BM and SV Hunters stat prio was crit/master/haste. Now it looks rather like crit/haste(cap)/master. But I assume that it depends on the gear.
    What is the haste cap fo sv? 6000? 6100?

  2. #2
    I'm quite sure there isn't a cap.. Just go with Crit>Haste>Mastery as gear allows after you get 1 (maybe 2?) RPPM abilities. Bad Juju, Renataki, 2 set, 4 set.
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  3. #3
    But haste cap should do something, e.g. another tick from SS or BA. Top hunters have haste around 6100-6150. And I don't think it's a coincidence. They keep this value for a reason. And reforging without a chance to reach the cap is usually useless. If you can't reach haste cap in my opinion stat prio is still mastery>haste. But when it's possible (for me, with 513 it isn't) it should change to haste cap>mastery. Am I right?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by dzidek View Post
    But haste cap should do something, e.g. another tick from SS or BA. Top hunters have haste around 6100-6150. And I don't think it's a coincidence. They keep this value for a reason. And reforging without a chance to reach the cap is usually useless. If you can't reach haste cap in my opinion stat prio is still mastery>haste. But when it's possible (for me, with 513 it isn't) it should change to haste cap>mastery. Am I right?

    SS and BA don't scale with haste. You will never get extra ticks. The only thing that would be able to get an extra attack is Dire Beast, but i don't know the haste you need for that.


    Most probably prefer haste over mastery because of the new rppm mechanics. The more haste you have the higher the chance tot trinkets or t15 set bonuses can proc and the uptime of the buffs is also higher. But i am not aware that there is a cap on that.

  5. #5
    Hmm I checked the other hunters of top20+ and only few of them have haste around 6100 (eg Rogerbrown, Pottm, Vooyas). Some of them is way above thsis value. So it might be coincidence... I'm confused right now. From which value we should go haste>mastery? Or generally our stat prio is now haste>mastery (considering items with rppm mechanics)?

  6. #6
    Our dots are not affected by haste, contrary to what people might think. Set amount of ticks in a set amount of time without change.

    I only have 1 RPPM ability, changed to Haste>Mastery, and I'm liking the results.

    "Top hunters have haste around 6100-6150" because that's how it ended up being after reforging Crit>Haste>Mastery, at least for the ones I checked, some had more Haste, some has less.

    Edit: Tabbing in and tabbing out of game causing me not to see previous posts..

    Dire Beast hastes are 3864 and 9000-something, over at the Elitistjerks MM page under one of the Haste categories. Also one for 5000-something during Lust.
    Last edited by Jeremypwnz; 2013-03-27 at 09:59 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Once you have 2 pc, you're pretty good switching to haste > mastery. Add some trinkets, and you're golden.

    I have normal mode Rentaki's and 2 and 4pc, and I'm loving haste > mastery right now.

  8. #8

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dzidek View Post
    Hmm I checked the other hunters of top20+ and only few of them have haste around 6100 (eg Rogerbrown, Pottm, Vooyas). Some of them is way above thsis value. So it might be coincidence... I'm confused right now. From which value we should go haste>mastery? Or generally our stat prio is now haste>mastery (considering items with rppm mechanics)?
    Problem you talk about is marginal. You get much more dps, when you learn your rotation perfectly or improve dps while heavy movement.
    But if you insist get haste>mastery for single target fights and mastery>haste for multidoting, aoeing fight. Averagish player wont notice a difference.
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

  9. #9
    Heh we have 4 warriors, 2 monks and 2 shamans in our raid so I have a hard time getting my second piece of t15... Maybe this week I'll be more lucky And go for haste>mastery.

  10. #10
    around 6100 haste is roughly 12.7%
    There is afaik no haste plateau there.
    Dire beast is around 9000 haste to have a higher chance of a 11th attack (more than 50% of the time) (3864 haste rating for a 10th attack 50%+ attack.) (14000 for 12th)
    cobra/steady shot 5496 haste rating for 1sec GCD during rapid fire
    cobra/steady shot 6955 haste for 1.25 default cast time allowing for some more crisp fits in rotation ( usually non-issue for BM/SV , pretty nice for MM)

    I think your just seeing "top hunters" around that haste lvl because there is just alot of haste on gear, and theyre going for the same items and they all do
    crit>haste>mastery and it averages out to around 6000 haste atm . This is visible throught their gear since they tend to leave crit/haste as it iis , reforge crit/mastery to haste from mast. and go for hit/exp caps by reforging haste if needed.

    As a side note , ive seen Devai(from paragon) higher at 6500-7000 for a while now.
    He also picked up MM instead of BM , im assuming because progression is done.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by sultangurde View Post
    Problem you talk about is marginal. You get much more dps, when you learn your rotation perfectly or improve dps while heavy movement.
    But if you insist get haste>mastery for single target fights and mastery>haste for multidoting, aoeing fight. Averagish player wont notice a difference.
    Actually there really isn't a noticeable change with haste > mastery for aoe scenarios, in fact my and my guildies dps is looking higher than mastery > haste.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Actually there really isn't a noticeable change with haste > mastery for aoe scenarios, in fact my and my guildies dps is looking higher than mastery > haste.
    This is where my oft-held gut feeling which I've suppressed for a year or so comes from. Theoretically/mathematically the more MS's from a haste > mastery AoE build should be outdone by the harder hitting ISS/SrS of a mastery > haste build. In practice, however, more MS's (IE, more ISS, same number of SrS ticks) overwhelms mastery > haste.

    I think for mastery > haste to really outshine haste > mastery (in AoE) in a practical setting, it would have to be sustained AoE, IE only MSing every 15s to refresh the SrS and letting the buffed SrS do all the damage. But most AoE in raiding calls for "burst AoE" which I think favors haste more than mastery.

    All unprofessional and unmathed, as I say, but I've noticed that I don't suffer as much as I would think from a haste > mastery build, even on AoE fights like H-Horridon.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 10:16 AM ----------

    As an addendum, has anyone mathed out SV AoE over, say, 5s burst windows, in terms of stat priority? Even 10s windows would be good to see.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dzidek View Post
    Another topic about "what top hunters do" ;] BM and SV Hunters stat prio was crit/master/haste. Now it looks rather like crit/haste(cap)/master. But I assume that it depends on the gear.
    What is the haste cap fo sv? 6000? 6100?
    The haste you are seeing is probably a comfortable value for Cobra Shots. I know in Cataclysm we took Haste up to different "plateaus" based on what we felt was comfortable cast time for Cobra Shot and focus regeneration. Someone pointed out 6000/6100 is about 12.7% haste so that sounds about right. Nothing else with Survival scales with haste (talents might, haven't played around with them to see).

    Haste affects the trinkets that use the RPPM system, but not sure what amount would be a decent amount since it won't always proc and does have a system against bad procs. You could for instance get 20% haste, but drop down to say 15% haste and still feel like/get the same amount of procs and your damage would increase more with mastery than that at 5% haste.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Actually there really isn't a noticeable change with haste > mastery for aoe scenarios, in fact my and my guildies dps is looking higher than mastery > haste.
    My femaledwarf profile shows 138.3k dps with mastery>haste and 140.3k dps with mastery>haste.

    Thing is hunters simulators has a major problems with proper haste stat value estimation.
    Haste Rating + 1 6.591 (haste>mastery reforge)
    Haste Rating + 1 0.167 (mastery>haste reforge)
    Note: Different quantities of haste will vary significantly in value due to shot shifting.

    Still matter is debatable and depends on fight/situation/gear.
    For example for Wind Lord Majerlak Hc mastery>...........haste

    Also about set bonuses:

    2P mastery>haste 4657.7 dps
    2P haste>mastery 5241.2 dps
    4P mastery>haste 3942 dps
    4P haste>mastery 4018 dps
    Cheers.
    Last edited by sultangurde; 2013-03-27 at 10:25 AM.
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by sultangurde View Post
    My femaledwarf profile shows 138.3k dps with mastery>haste and 140.3k dps with mastery>haste.

    Thing is hunters simulators has a major problems with proper haste stat value estimation.
    Haste Rating + 1 6.591 (haste>mastery reforge)
    Haste Rating + 1 0.167 (mastery>haste reforge)
    Note: Different quantities of haste will vary significantly in value due to shot shifting.

    Still matter is debatable and depends on fight/situation/gear.
    For example for Wind Lord Majerlak Hc mastery>...........haste

    Also about set bonuses:

    2P mastery>haste 4657.7 dps
    2P haste>mastery 5241.2 dps
    4P mastery>haste 3942 dps
    4P haste>mastery 4018 dps
    Cheers.
    Would you be able to provide a link of some sort so I can test your sim myself?

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  16. #16
    When you was running simulation before rppm ability, haste was > to mastery for SV hunter, ppl were considering a lot the shot lifting, but now with rppm abilty (5 in total with meta gem), there is no questions

  17. #17

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Would you be able to provide a link of some sort so I can test your sim myself?
    I made both profiles public in femaledwarf.com
    Search for:
    1. sultan SV
    2. sultan SV haste

    1. 138349.85
    2. 140296.79

    (Hit/exp is messed up, due to tortoise hit/exp 522ilvl bow)
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by sultangurde View Post
    I made both profiles public in femaledwarf.com
    Search for:
    1. sultan SV
    2. sultan SV haste

    1. 138349.85
    2. 140296.79

    (Hit/exp is messed up, due to tortoise hit/exp 522ilvl bow)
    I must've misunderstood what you said (I guess I should just go to sleep rather than browse the forums that late ) . It appears that your haste reforges are simming higher than mastery. Which I was presuming would be the case.

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  19. #19
    You can't even really count haste when it's a few percent higher. You will never play perfectly where everything lines up. Mastery, at this moment, is better due to the erratic nature of fights.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    You can't even really count haste when it's a few percent higher. You will never play perfectly where everything lines up. Mastery, at this moment, is better due to the erratic nature of fights.
    Do you have any basis or and logs detailing what you claim? Because from most of the top logs haste seems to be pulling ahead of mastery. It is surely better with any Real PPM abilities.

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