1. #1

    Prot AoE vs Warrior Prot AoE

    Is anyone else seeing their aoe being much weaker than the prot warriors Deep Wounds since their buffs? On Tortos we swapped out me tanking the bats with our warrior tank and logs showed them doing twice my damage with most of that being bleeds. And when I tried tanking the bats next to the warrior they would snag aggro off me regularly.

    May be I could switch to SoR but losing Battle-Healer benefits sucks.

  2. #2
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Is anyone else seeing their aoe being much weaker than the prot warriors Deep Wounds since their buffs? On Tortos we swapped out me tanking the bats with our warrior tank and logs showed them doing twice my damage with most of that being bleeds. And when I tried tanking the bats next to the warrior they would snag aggro off me regularly.

    May be I could switch to SoR but losing Battle-Healer benefits sucks.
    Id have thought Battle Heals would create more vengeance then SoR. And yes our aoe sucks unless we have lots of vengence. Even then our snap aoe is pretty poor imo.
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  3. #3
    I just feel like our snap AE is bad, but over a longer duration it is very good actually. I rank higher on Tortos than every protection warrior, so it is not really an issue. If warriors were ranking 400k dps and paladins 200k, yes, then it would have been an issue, but that is not the case now, paladins are actually ranking higher.

    Like yes, warrior got dots, we got consecration. Kinda works in the same way.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I just feel like our snap AE is bad, but over a longer duration it is very good actually. I rank higher on Tortos than every protection warrior, so it is not really an issue. If warriors were ranking 400k dps and paladins 200k, yes, then it would have been an issue, but that is not the case now, paladins are actually ranking higher.

    Like yes, warrior got dots, we got consecration. Kinda works in the same way.
    We got consecration and battle healer, which generates 250% threat split on all targets. And when you crit a bat at Tortos for upwards of 900k with ShoR, and heal somebody for 300k, then that is 750k threat that gets split to every bat in the room. Battle Healer is such a potent source of AoE threat.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    And when you crit a bat at Tortos for upwards of 900k with ShoR, and heal somebody for 300k, then that is 750k threat that gets split to every bat in the room. Battle Healer is such a potent source of AoE threat.
    900k?!? My average crit is 195K. How do I suck so bad? Mind you I have fairly low vengeance the entire fight. We two tank it swapping adds and boss on each round.
    Last edited by Drummerboy; 2013-03-22 at 04:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    If I were to complain about another tank's aoe threat/damage, it definitely would not be warriors. They actually needed the buffs.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    900k?!? My average crit is 195K. How do I suck so bad?
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    If I were to complain about another tank's aoe threat/damage, it definitely would not be warriors. They actually needed the buffs.
    My thoughts as well. Seems like tanking with a monk I shouldn't even bother.

  9. #9
    Funny, my prot warrior tanking the bat loses aggro all the time to a monk's spinning krane kick/keg smash in 2-3 globals. Warrior's sustained aoe dmg is fine, but threat (especially snap aggro) is subpar if you can't abuse revenge spam (which still only hits three targets while most of the other relevant tank abilities hit an unlimited amount of foes).

    Well but i guess this isn't helpful at all: actually i'd use the paladin on the turtle, this way he can still drop his consecration into the bats while getting higher vengeance (-> more raidheal via insight glyph). This is also the better combo for heroic mode, insight selfheal is enough to regulary keep the crystal absorb active without ever dropping below 100%.

  10. #10
    Warning, long wall of text inc with information and stats that may or may not be relevant

    Actually to back and back up my previous reply with some stats. Take a look at the percentiles on Tortos.
    Open all the following in new tabs (in order)

    Now first to remember, Tortos is an AoE fight, so these reports are reflecting that aspect of the fight. By no way does it reflect the single target rotation of a class, just the AE portion.

    So, pick up all these tabs and play a little slideshow for yourself. Play through the whole sequence for yourself a few time and see how it changes as you look at different percentiles.

    10th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    20th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    30th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    40th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    60th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    80th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    90th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    95th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    99th http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011111000000
    max http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Torto...00011011000000 --- Sadly bugged BRM log mess up the graph, but highest BRM is 305k currently. The max rankings is only included or 'trivia' purpose as they hold very low weight in comparison to the 95th and 99th PCT, so look at it briefly but not to much.

    After you have picked up all these tabs and played a little slideshow for yourself. Played through the whole sequence for yourself a few times and seem how it changes as we look at different percentiles.

    Just play through the 10th, 20th, 30th and 40th percentile.

    The first couple of percentiles shows worse tanks and those that are main tanking the boss. What the earlier graphs tells you is that paladins and warriors have a hard time helping on AE while tanking the boss.

    Notice the bump on monks between 10th and 20th percentile. An indication that the monks that are more or less, clueless, of how monks work and just a mediocre one is huge. The further ellaborate. A small difference in skill on monks = a huge difference in DPS, generally tells you that it is quite easy to help with AE on a monk.

    Other than that, the earlier Pcts do not really tell us much more right now. Other than paladins(and warriors) are having a hard time AEing bats while tanking boss. Will come back to them later.

    Lets skip ahead to the 40th Pct for now. This is where the AEing starts for tanks really, below 40% is mostly the boss tanks, above is the AE zone. Skim through the 40th, 60th and 80th pct for a few times. Check how it evolves. Druids and Monks and warriors are keeping their own relative spots on the graphs. What we do however notice is the rise of the paladin and the decline of the DK. DKs falling short of other tanks, basically means that DKs reached their potential earlier. In short, shows indications of that DKs have a lower cap on maximum AE, but have a lot easier than the other tanks to reach it. The rise of the paladin basically indicates that paladins are having significantly harder time performing AE dps rotation. Quite frankly, I do not understand why, but the statistics shows towards that paladin rotation is a bit harder than the other tanks, those causing them the underperform. You notice that as we start reaching the better tanks at 80% paladins are almost catching up with the other tanks.

    Now to the extremely interesting part. Skim through the 80th, 90th, 95th and 99th percentile now.
    Just go back and forth and notice the differences. Talk about the rise of the paladins.
    Well, first of, a look at the other classes. Warriors are staying in the same place, meaning that warriors simply have the worst AE throughput of all tank classes. DKs further drop, to repeat the point in the last segment, DKs have a much lower cap, but a much easier time than other tanks in performing AE dps. Monks overtake Druids, but just marginally. An indication of monks having a higher potential, and slightly (although not huge) difference in effort required to reach that cap.
    Paladins however! They rise like a phoenix, from the ashses to the sky. Going from 4th to 1st. Remember, now we are comparing the 80th percentile through the 99th. So we are comparing good players vs the top players. What this tells us is just extending and reinforcing the previous point on paladins. As the skill level of the paladins increase, their dps significantly increase. Paladins actually have the highest potential of all tanks, but the hardest time reaching it. Basically, and indication of paladins AE rotation requirig the most effort of all tanks to perfect. As now at the 99th percentile we can assume all players are playing their class to 110%.

    Though, my own reasoning behind this is maybe not that paladins have the hardest rotation. I believe that the answer is somewhere else. I think that paladins have the hardest AM of all classes, the relatively short uptime of SotR requires more precision timing than the other tank classes. So what I believe is happening is that on the lower tips of the scale, the paladins that are not 100% comfortable with their class have to focus to much on their AM while keeping their AE rotation up, causing them to fail on their AE rotation.
    So all in all, it is maybe not the actual rotation, just that the paladin class requires more focus outside of the rotation than the other tanks causing the lower end of the paladin tank pool to fall so far behind the other tanks. This is a difficult topic which is hard to discuss, since there is no straight answer here, only speculations. What we can tell from this though is that paladins have the hardest time reaching their maximum potential on AE, and have the highest maximum potential aswell.

    Lets go back and comment a bit on warriors. Warriors are constantly on the lower end of the scale, never rise or fall. The is an indication of that perhaps warriors do not have the hardest time performing their AE, just simply, that they have the lowest potential.

    In short.
    (I will explain below why warriors are below druids)
    Effort gone into performing the AE rotation: Paladin >>>>>> Monk>Druid>Warrior>>>>>DKs
    Maximum AE potential: Paladin>Monk>Druid>>>Dk>>>>>Warrior

    Now, there is another thing we can tell in these logs to further this conclusion. The current ranking of each percentile, especially the lower ones, are a balance between, players that have cleared the content before coming back, overgearing bruteforcig the content achieving higher ranks, and newer, less experienced players, clearing the content slower, therefor dragging the average down with their logs.

    If you look at each individual class, if you check the 10th through 60th percentile. You will notice that during the last week, every tank class graph is pointing upwards. Warriors are pointing up the most, while paladins are pointing down.
    If you continue to look through 60th through 90th percentile, it is the same trend, only that druids also start going down, except not as much as paladins.

    What this then tell us is that the weight of the newer DKs, warriors and monks are low enough for the more experieced players reclearing the content to carry them upwards, while for paladins (and in the later percentiles druids), they weigh so much that it weighs the class down.

    This again is an indication that DKs, Warriors and Monks are significantly easier than paladin for newer players and less experienced players, and for druids, well, its kinda tie. Maybe it justifies druids being ranked above monks in effort, but at least it justifies them being ranked higher than warriors.

    This is a subject that can be speculated in a lot, and there is no plain answer, simply logical reasoning.

    I am sorry if I deralied a lot. But yeah, hope you find some answer in my wall of text. To reitterate.

    Paladins are actually in a great place. I just believe that due to the sensitive nature of paladin AM and how much effort it takes up for paladins that are no 100% comfortable with the class, they fall behind a lot in their rotation as they lose focus on it, causing them to fall behind other tanks. Often when I watch Prot Paladin PoV on youtube, I question how people can make such mistakes in their rotation, but I guess the facts speak for themselves, paladins are having extreme issues maintaining their rotation, which I again, think is due to paladins AM being more sensitive than other tanks.

    To your question vs your warrior. You should have better AE as paladins have the highest AE potential and warriors have the lowest. That said, your warrior probably have an easier time to harness that potential. If you are having issues on your AE, you probably need to practice your rotation a bit more and get comfortable with the active mitigation.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-22 at 05:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    We got consecration and battle healer, which generates 250% threat split on all targets. And when you crit a bat at Tortos for upwards of 900k with ShoR, and heal somebody for 300k, then that is 750k threat that gets split to every bat in the room. Battle Healer is such a potent source of AoE threat.
    Yeah, I am using the "tactic" on Tortos, that the snapping bite that comes right at the same time as bat spaws, I do not use a SotR intentionally (So I drop more in life).

    This allows me to get 100% aggro on all bats with my SoI before they land. So no healer or boomkin with starfall get aggro on them. After they landed, BH and Cons takes care of the rest.

    Edit: Also, holy moley! It took me almost one hour to write that reply! I was not 100% focusing on it but still! It felt like it took 5 minutes. Time flies when you are looking at graphs and numbers!
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-22 at 04:39 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #11
    The heals from the bats are being counted as casted by me in Skada and World of Logs. I wonder if they generate threat?
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    The heals from the bats are being counted as casted by me in Skada and World of Logs. I wonder if they generate threat?
    If the bats are healing, then they already on you, meaning that any additional threat is irrelevant.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #13
    We are two tanking this fight with one tank on Tortos and the other on bats but from what I'm seeing tanks with the ungodly high DPS are solo tanking this boss. Is this correct?

  14. #14
    Yes. It is very easy to solo tank.
    My guild tried to duo tank it at start, but soon gave up realising how much easier it was to solo tank.

    From paladin PoV:

    1. Use SotR on every snapping bite.
    2. Pop a minor CD when bats land (Dprot, stoneform, trinket, HoPur, whatever you have, something small)
    3. Remember to keep Weakened Blows on bats.
    4. Use SotR on every quake.
    5. Bats should be dead before quake, if they are not for some reason, use a bigger CD, ardent defender, GoAK or ask for external cooldown.

    A little +++

    Do not use SotR on the snapping bite before the bats spawn. This will guarantee you get healing aggro on them, since your HP will drop lower allowig you to heal up more with SoI
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-22 at 08:18 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #15
    Yeah unfortunately I'm the one that goes DPS on solo tank fights. So we've been doing a tank swap just before each round of bats (just after stalagtites) so we had vengeance. It is what it is.

  16. #16
    I believe that any tank can solo tank it. Paladins are just better at it than most (all?) other tanks.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire
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    did 230k DPS on it with 2tanks (Double warrior) Our OT had so little vengeance when he picks the bats that i steal 2/3 of them really fast.

  18. #18
    Just curious, solo tanking it on 10 or 25? From my observation on 25man bat can hit quite hard, your hp can dip low very quickly if healer is running around dodging rockfalls for example.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by flyflame View Post
    Just curious, solo tanking it on 10 or 25? From my observation on 25man bat can hit quite hard, your hp can dip low very quickly if healer is running around dodging rockfalls for example.
    While probably doable on 25man with an excess of gear, there really is no reason to solo tank Tortos. The only reason to do so would be for chasing WoL ranks, if you are having trouble with the enrage you should get your DPS up to speed.

    Isn't like it would be viable on heroic mode anyway, the bats heal when the tank drops below 550k.
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