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  1. #61
    There's no class changes in place yet. Just let Blizzard release their official patch notes and THEN we'll have a conversation about changes.

    (and to comment on the Shroud weirdness, notice that the same thing seems to have happened to Fire and Brimstone's damage for Destruction warlocks; they're not real changes)
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Smashysmashy View Post
    I was thinking it might just stealth all raid/party members with no limit (aka 0 = unlimited) so they don't have to sit on you for it.
    I wouldn't assume too much. As shadowboy points out above, it's a datamining issue, and we should see any intended changes showing on the PTR before use. If it did work that way, it would be horribly OP for RBGs. Stealth across the map? NP.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 03:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    There's no class changes in place yet. Just let Blizzard release their official patch notes and THEN we'll have a conversation about changes.
    There are a couple unless they're errors; GoSac for Demo Warlocks dropping from 30% to 25% is new.

    Edit: Alternatively that's ALSO an error (drafted from affliction?) as https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...51772450660352 states.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-25 at 07:43 PM.

  3. #63
    Field Marshal Vyreks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    No, it's just a datamining issue. It may not even change.
    Annnnd it's gone from the front page news post. Must have been a data mining issue after all.

  4. #64
    I hope they do something about our t15 4pc. I got 4pc yesterday and swapped to combat. AR+SB during hero = full energy bar the entire duration. It breaks my brain (and my keyboard).

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    I hope they do something about our t15 4pc. I got 4pc yesterday and swapped to combat. AR+SB during hero = full energy bar the entire duration. It breaks my brain (and my keyboard).
    Isn't it common knowledge that AR during hero/bloodlust is generally a bad idea anyway?

  6. #66
    Brewmaster willtron's Avatar
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    get rid of Slice and Dice - its a very old clunky mechanic that we're are totally dependant upon, instead, give us a passive attack speed increase - 40% for all specs.

    Or, get rid of SnD and get rid of the dependence on doing white damage, increase CP Builder damage. And i'll be pretty happy.


    Oh, and leave my Shuriken Toss alone. Seriously though if it is in anyway nerfed I fully expect to be reimbursed in the form of mobility.
    It's Draenei. Drahn-eye. No Dranai, Dreani, Dratini, Dreaneai, Drayni. Except I play an Orc.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolard View Post
    Isn't it common knowledge that AR during hero/bloodlust is generally a bad idea anyway?
    It's 50% or more through the cooldown by the end of it, plus SB autoattacks add loads of damage during hero. I'm pretty sure it's worth stacking rather than delaying. Seeing a filled energy bar just makes me cringe.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Carni View Post
    Things I want.

    -Turn poisons into aura like buffs, meaning yea keep your silly cast time to apply them but remove duration, make them indefinite till changed.
    -Fix lock boxes. I should just be able to right click on them to open them.
    -Increase energy cost on ST (between 30-35). Its needed, you know it, I know it and that is that.
    -Add a 15-20 second cd to DT. Make it baseline. (WHY WAS IT EVER NOT BASELINE YOU MAGELUBBERS?!)
    -Replace DT with a shiv improvement talent. Remove energy cost, Increase its nonlethal poison effect. (Leeching poison heals more, paralytic poison roots longer ect)
    -Make swirly ball glyph baseline.
    -add pockets to stuff on island of the thunder king. (DO IT)
    I think that's a really good list of simply changes (I cannot comment on the ST change though I suspect something is required I don't PvP enough to know). It's absolutely true that the pick locks power must go; it just doesn't do anything. Probably need to do away with disarm trap.

    I'd actually prefer replacing Throw with a lesser version of Shuriken toss--something that can be cast instantly, pull with a combo point, and then go on a 20second+ cooldown. The PvP talent would boost it, of course.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    -first post-

    redbtk is also on the idea that i came across quote by redbtk "The style of building up 5 CP for max damage is terrible and slow. "Ain't nobody got time for that" applies perfectly for the stupid idea of majority damage being auto hits and poisons DoT. "

    with this in mind energy efficiency is a problem we are experiancing now. because we have to build up to the 5 cp's eviscerate or envenom. with all the ticks added in.

    i want to take a step back in time. a long time ago in a galaxy far far away there was a rogue master lvl 40 that were the eyes and ears of his raid leader directing intel on where the raid needed to apply damage etc.. today noone uses a rogue for this purpose and because rogues are rogues should still be reserved.

    we only care about the class being fun as the others we don't mind being on the bottom at least able to have a somewhat equal chance of beating the others in general. the resource efficiency; remember joker spec has the nice cp gen to get 4 cp's with a shuriken toss for 5 then envenom.

    i have great ideas to solve rotation issues; idea of adding making the class more complicated is not going well for me. what about adding a 100 yard repel rope and a 40 yard grappel hook to sneak around stormwind and orgimar? blah

    thanks for reading.

    ----

    my first post page 2;

    redbtk is touching on the idea of resource efficiency by redbtk "The style of building up 5 CP for max damage is terrible and slow. "Ain't nobody got time for that" applies perfectly for the stupid idea of majority damage being auto hits and poisons DoT."

    we need to be efficiency in energy the energy cost for a combo point should be 20 across all gen abilities. we need a grappling hook 40 yard range to sneak around stormwind and orgimar. a 100 yard repelling rope to scale cliffs. another idea is that having the slice and dice stack so if it takes us 10 seconds to go through a damage rotation s&d stacks up to 38 seconds or so but can always take a combo point to add an extra 12 secs on? s&d stacks on the duration is the idea.

    resource efficiency is proplom #1 and it's not really affecting joker because their cp gen gives 4 add a shuriken toss 5. just keep the spec's relative to class performance what we are all performing i guess. energy efficiency would make the rogue experience fun.


    I'm using batman comic book to bring this to a level other may understand. sub is batman assisnation is joker (poisons like the poison factory in 1989 batman; batman still has a frown on his face.)
    when wow first came out we used rogues for intel gathering; this seldom happens so it's jsut a matter of making damage performance relative to other calss's.

    a silly guess what next patch rogue get to use agility PLATE! woot!

    ---

    Energy resource efficiency like the gasoline in your car is the #1 problem for a rogue; I'm all for combo points across the board costing 20 energy per combo point.

    let's be realist yall need a free honor kill don't ya?

    Caught in the moderated/spam filter twice, sorry for the wait. -Mugajak
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-26 at 03:25 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    *snippet*
    I don't even know how to respond to any of this.....

    Grapple hook sounds like a terrible idea. That's what mounts are for.
    When were rogues EVER used in a raid encounter (or PvP, or anything) to "gather intel"? That's what pulling the boss and watching PvP videos are for.
    And there's already a spammable 20-energy CP generator, but it does no damage and acts like Sunder Armor. It's called Expose Armor, and it's actually a really underrated way of putting up Weakened Armor quickly.

    Anyway...
    Third spec being a possibility for Rogues is kind of underwhelming. Guess I'll have somewhere to store my PvP talents/bars now, but I don't see it being used for much else.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  11. #71
    "Slice and Dice has been removed from the Assassination spec. In its place, we've introduced Toxic Brew, a finishing move that causes damage over time and applies the Toxic debuff, increasing your Mastery on that target by 10 for its duration."

    Beyond that, my biggest gripe right now is how ranged DPS is superior to melee DPS on almost every occasion. But generally I'm enjoying my rogue and loving the new Smoke Bomb.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Boil View Post
    PLUS A ZILLION…!!!

    Redirect is nothing more than an interruption in my thought processes when I am trying to concentrate on my rotation, keeping everything up, watching that I do not stand in stuff, etc. Just let me carry those combo points over with me to the next mob, without my having to do anything special to do so…!
    So what you are saying is that you want rogues to be like like monks can have the combo points on us like chi?

  13. #73
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Beyond that, my biggest gripe right now is how ranged DPS is superior to melee DPS on almost every occasion
    This.

    I can live with our Rogue's are at the moment, I can't live with high ranged are superior to melee on almost every boss!

  14. #74
    there is nothing that will be done unless we can all agree on; just looking at this thread have some ideas' got some guys in here cogneto that don't want a rogue anything except a free honor kill; this is how they are viewed now on the pvp side of the game. the only spec contributing to a raid as a dps is assination; i have not seen a combat rogue or sub rogue come close because of the energy costs for the cp gens and the long time taken to eviscerate.

    i want the class to be blanced and fun; i have considerable time playing and thinking about this. everyone remembers vanilla i disagree with vanillas rogue; to me a rogue should be resourcful having many availble using every abilitiy flying fast thinking on a basis as situational so macros are not as important because youl have to think of the situation to program the macro. a rogue does not need macros. recount add on seems as a scientific calcuylation for the damage path's. spend time learn to the data and share. be honest to give an idea for a decision to make the experiaence "FUN" every other class is fun to play; a problem i see is the consistecy of "no thought contrbuted"; this is why the class numbers are low. on other three specs should be performing realitive same.

    im not mr. bachelor here not the smartest guy i can understand the the earth of the realm im in no matter what. this is what i see from my looking glass.


    from everyother point of view of other class' a rogue gets stepped on this is why; players that do not know anything about rogue are in flames. so they are blind; then you ahve the rogues that played stoppped and playing another class

    [class combination] rogue

    im talking about this

    rogue rogue vs [class combination] rogue

    rogue rogue is true

    deathknight rogue

    druid rogue

    paladan rogue

    hunter rogue

    etc.

    rogue rogue gets stepped on because noone contruibutes honest thought to making it balanced. this si what is going on

    i can see energy effecy given to keep a rogue rogue playing because to the others they all want free honor kills this is not balanced. from their point of view a rogue needs energy to keep fighting so that they can get their free honor kill. why is the rogue rogue going to still play if always slay after slay.

    in the end if you vs a rogue it's this rogue vs rogue so who is the better rogue master is going to win. no matter what class you are. this MoP has made everyone behave as a rogue inclusindg the AoE stealth. a matter of bringing the rogue up is all it is. to a point.


    when it comes to this say in respons do you agree or not. jsut explaing why

    all this just goes over carp the fish it's simple to know and talk about when you actualy play the class. who gives a )()(*& abo9ut a greppeling hook jsut an idea to stimulate others interest.

    a kind response i take my time to edit so that it looks educated for your gammer people that don't see past the grammer.

  15. #75
    Since you decided to attack me, I'll respond to another of your posts, regularcustomer. Forgive me for this wall of text.

    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    there is nothing that will be done unless we can all agree on; just looking at this thread have some ideas' got some guys in here cogneto that don't want a rogue anything except a free honor kill; this is how they are viewed now on the pvp side of the game. the only spec contributing to a raid as a dps is assination; i have not seen a combat rogue or sub rogue come close because of the energy costs for the cp gens and the long time taken to eviscerate.
    I'm not going to try to talk about the Rogue PvP side of things, but from what I've heard, rogues are pretty powerful in 5.2.

    From a PvE side:
    Combat will be the best spec at the end of the tier due to scaling and the T15 4P bonus (and Combat gets the most out of this tier's trinket design). Assassination is best in progression because it's hitting a lot harder than last tier thanks to the Envenom and Dispatch buffs.
    You're right that Subtlety won't come close, but it's not because of energy costs (and that's not what it is for Combat, either), it's because of positional requirements and most of the boss mechanics being very unfriendly to melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    i want the class to be blanced and fun; i have considerable time playing and thinking about this. everyone remembers vanilla i disagree with vanillas rogue; to me a rogue should be resourcful having many availble using every abilitiy flying fast thinking on a basis as situational so macros are not as important because youl have to think of the situation to program the macro. a rogue does not need macros. recount add on seems as a scientific calcuylation for the damage path's. spend time learn to the data and share. be honest to give an idea for a decision to make the experiaence "FUN" every other class is fun to play; a problem i see is the consistecy of "no thought contrbuted"; this is why the class numbers are low. on other three specs should be performing realitive same.
    "being resourcful having many availble using every abilitiy flying fast thinking on a basis as situational so macros are not as important because youl have to think of the situation to program the macro" is what all good players do naturally. Macros are there so that it is easier to play at higher levels, and so that higher-level players can optimize themselves as much as possible.

    The reason why our 3 specs don't play the same has nothing to do with "no thought contributed", it's that most of the work has already been done through already-generated theorycrafting, then taking it into SimCraft, and then testing that in the game in order to see what works.
    General consensus is that Assassination and Combat are in good places (Combat just needs gear), and Subtlety is terrible because it requires a ton of gear and too many fights don't allow for much uptime behind a boss. The exceptions to this are Primordius, Ji-Kun (maybe), and Lei Shen (maybe).

    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    im not mr. bachelor here not the smartest guy i can understand the the earth of the realm im in no matter what. this is what i see from my looking glass.


    from everyother point of view of other class' a rogue gets stepped on this is why; players that do not know anything about rogue are in flames. so they are blind; then you ahve the rogues that played stoppped and playing another class

    [class combination] rogue

    im talking about this

    rogue rogue vs [class combination] rogue

    rogue rogue is true

    deathknight rogue

    druid rogue

    paladan rogue

    hunter rogue

    etc.

    rogue rogue gets stepped on because noone contruibutes honest thought to making it balanced. this si what is going on
    Again, I'm not going to talk PvP. But based on the overall sound of this chunk, I'd say you're not the kind of person that likes to find places that theorycraft. Here's a few websites that do theorycrafting and discuss Rogue balance in comparison to other classes (other than this website, of course):
    Arena Junkies' Rogue Forum (for PvP)
    Elitist Jerks' Rogue Forum (for PvE)
    Icy Veins (go under classes and pick whichever spec you want information on, for PvE)
    Noxxic's Rogue Forum (for PvE and PvP)


    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    i can see energy effecy given to keep a rogue rogue playing because to the others they all want free honor kills this is not balanced. from their point of view a rogue needs energy to keep fighting so that they can get their free honor kill. why is the rogue rogue going to still play if always slay after slay.

    in the end if you vs a rogue it's this rogue vs rogue so who is the better rogue master is going to win. no matter what class you are. this MoP has made everyone behave as a rogue inclusindg the AoE stealth. a matter of bringing the rogue up is all it is. to a point.
    Total energy efficiency is never going to be given to any class. There's no PvE reason for it, and there's DEFINITELY no PvP reason for it.
    But putting that aside, when has anyone ever seen someone ask for "total energy efficiency"? I've only ever seen Internet Trolls ask for it.

    You're right that they've been giving all the rogue's gimmicks to other classes (stealth to hunters and mages, Chi being what rogues have always wanted Combo Points to be, warriors being able to stunlock), and rogues haven't really been "compensated" for these changes.
    In my opinion, it doesn't really matter. Rogues have had these things for 5 or more years, and those other classes won't be as good as we are with those abilities for a long time. Except for Monks...damn Chi.


    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    when it comes to this say in respons do you agree or not. jsut explaing why

    all this just goes over carp the fish it's simple to know and talk about when you actualy play the class. who gives a )()(*& abo9ut a greppeling hook jsut an idea to stimulate others interest.

    a kind response i take my time to edit so that it looks educated for your gammer people that don't see past the grammer.
    I've explained my thoughts on your latest thoughts pretty thoroughly.

    None of this has gone over my head. And if it has, I've seen that it has and decided not to post an opinion of it (the PvP stuff, mostly).
    And are you trying to say that I don't play the class? Are you kidding?
    Here's my armory.
    I've logged over 140 DAYS of playtime in the past 3 years on this character alone. This is my main, not a re-roll.

    Childish taunting aside, it's never a bad thing to stimulate other people's interest. But don't be surprised when someone like me comes along and rains on your hook-based parade by shedding light on the RIDEABLE DRAGONS AND FLYING CARPETS that are already in the game.

    And I wrote this giant wall of text in response to your giant wall of text because I took time to see past your grammar. Please understand that, at least.

    Now excuse me while I never post in this thread again until there are 5.3 changes to be discussed.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  16. #76
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Chill out fellas! Look here:

    No to memes =(
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-31 at 06:27 PM. Reason: Soz If kitty pic broke MMO posting rules

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Chill out fellas! Look here:
    That picture is hilarious.

    snip

    "Now excuse me while I never post in this thread again until there are 5.3 changes to be discussed."
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-31 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Added note about no 5.3 changes yet.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  18. #78
    Few quick notes:

    Calling people out is unlikely to lead to useful conversation. Keep your topics to the ideas at hand. While things remained tame, flaming other posters is not allowed on these forums, so please make sure to leave your ego/anger behind the keyboard. Additionally, moderation is both off-topic and a "forbidden topic" on these forums for open discussion. If you've got any moderation-related questions, feel free to PM a moderator.

    -Mugajak



    The biggest issue I see with your ideas, is that what you're looking for (regularcustomer) relies on a system totally different from WoW's system. One where each member brings something tactically different to a dungeon (closer to a D&D setting), rather than numeric and situational synergy for combat. In raids, we don't care if the group has stealth. Well, maybe we do, to skip that one annoying pack you can stealth past, but it's not really a big deal, because if it were, rogues would be mandatory, and with 11 classes and a 10-man raid, that's just not really okay.

    In an extremely different platform, like an MMO-dungeon-crawl, a rogue having the ability to grappel across the inside of a cavern and scale walls for the purposes of gathering intelligence would be incredible, but the game isn't headed that direction (which would introduce another WORLD of complexity to the game), at all. We're seeing homogenization to neutralize the extreme benefits of specific class/specs, and the game is balanced around that word - "balance", in reference primarily to end-game PvE raid content, because that's the real "focus" of the game. Making our in-combat rotation to bring out the best recount/skada/WoLogs response IS what's needed, because anything else would rely on changing WoW itself at a fundamental level, and that would kill the game for most of us.

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