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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, firstly, yes, DBM floods you with timers, but those timers are often CDs, not "that spell is coming now", and if you blindly use your SotR for these timers you will miss because SotR only have a 3 sec duration. Making it very easy to miss time for.

    Also, top of the top paladins outdamage BRMs in both single target and AE. Though the lower end of paladins fall far behind. This alone should tell you that BRM have an easier dps rotation as the lower end of the tank pool monks are far above paladins but in the top, they are below.

    @ Raid healing. Yes, it is not exclusive to paladins, paladins are still the strongest of that. Monks do have decent raid healing, but it is not remotely close to paladins.
    Add on top of that hand of sacrifice, protection, salvation, devotion, HoPur etc.

    Also, I would say warriors are the kings of mobility, but monks are close second.

    And cheesing mechanics, paladins can also eat the entire Decapitate and similar.
    Back in T14 on heroic SK. We used to spread out. Our paladin tank just solo tanked the boss, eating every cleave alone and standing in the first and third annihilate (was a bug on the second annihilate that did not allow him to soak it.) resulting in over 200k dps during the first boss.
    I don't know if you know this, but most abilities that have a "cooldown" are use on cooldown, the cooldown is there to show you that it can't be skipped if another ability intercepts its timer. For example, Horridon's Triple Puncute has a 10s CD, and it is used every 10 seconds if nothing intercepts the timer, if you happen to see a Double Swipe and the CD finishes midcast, you can be 100% sure Triple Puncture will hit right after Double Swipe finishes, same with Dire Call and Charge.

    Also, your remark about BrM's has little to do with the class and more to do with Sample Bias. There are many more Paladins (competent ones at that) than there are BrM's mainly due to it being a newer class, and a much more different spec. The top paladins, if you look at them, cheese everything with 1 tank fights, now those are maybe 1-5 people in the entire world aiming at those logs, for Brewmasters there are none of those, from what I've seen. It is certainly possible to solo tank those fights to get an edge on the vengeance, but for the most part their guild doesn't care about their "rankings". In terms of AoE, I don't know what Brewmasters you've played with, but when sustained, Brewmasters are still king. About the easier DPS rotation, I don't see Paladins having a rotation that is remotely close to being harder than a Brewmasters, that argument goes only for DKs and maybe Warriors. Tank DPS' main factor comes from being able to get that Vengeance and doing it properly.

    Also Raid healing, I don't know what desert your head has been in for the past 2 tiers, or if you've simply been starting at your Recount, but last time I checked, Absorbs count as healing (or does that mean Discipline priests aren't healers anymore). To add to that, for your raid healing to be worth while, you have to give up SoT (which is a good chunk of your "top" paladins' DPS rankings), and use SoI. Brewmasters on the other hand, handle all their smart healing from the damage they do, which scales with the Vengeance they have. They can have both a high amount of Raid healing and a High amount of DPS. That isn't the say Paladins can't, but their Opportunity cost is greater, where as Brewmasters don't have any Opportunity cost between the two variables.

    And yes most tanks can eat a Decapitate, you have a personal Guardian Angel. The fact is Brewmasters can do it consecutively for the entire phase.

    And yes about your Spirit Kings, its quite funny, the swings are nothing to a Brewmaster. For the most part they could be avoided (85% avoidance much..?) and they can be staggered, which meant they could never killed a Brewmaster, so yes that means Brewmasters could eat every swing as well (Annihilate does less dmg than a single swing so its even easier).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Actually. It is always the same.

    80% of the non tank player base says paladins is the strongest.
    Most of the tanks says paladin are the strongest.
    All paladins says paladins are the strongest.
    Most warriors, know that they are not the best. But they still work, and are still damn strong, they are the class that got the most insight tbh. They know their place and accept it. Not trying to make up some make-belief reasons why their class is the best *cough* dks *cough* monks. Warriors are still damn good tanks with raid good raid utility, they are the 99%! Not the full 100%
    Some druids says "But druids have some uses too" (Actually very legit points, just as BRMs, not many people know the full potential of druids)
    A lot of DKs try to convince people that dks are good. But then fall short to the fact, that DKs have roughly the same survivability as other tanks, they provide lower damage, and have almost 0 raid utility, making it no reason to take a DK over another tank. ( Both tanks can tank as well, but one helps the raid a ton, the other does not ).
    Then some monks always come it with the argument "People just don't know to play monks properly, monks in the right hands is godlike". Yeah, for which tank class is this not true? And then they comment on the 'strong' sides of monks, even though other tank classes are even stronger at said sides. Like DPS and Healing.
    Even though all logs and maths clearly supports this, the monks know better.

    Then I come in, make some reply that usually pisses of monks/DKs, because they can't face the truth. Then the truth just spiral downwards from there.

    Yeah, that is basically how these threads work.
    Zero raid utility? You obviously don't play a Blood DK. Monks however DO have a high skill cap. Finally, you do realize that ALL of Cata Blood was THE tank and was even THE tank during 5.0. Prot pallies only came to the forefront after the addition of Sanctity of Battle,(Btw I HAVE a prot pally) and the fact that they can cheese tank debuffs this tier helps them a lot. Plz, don't speak about classes you don't play, you come off as asinine and elitist.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    These threads never work because warriors say warriors are best, palas say palas are best etc.

    Warriors, Palas DKs, and Monks are pretty much on par if played well. Druids are probably a bit underneath that.
    Warrior here. Paladins are beast.

  4. #24
    And hmm, 80% of tanks eh? I believe you must be the spokesperson of every tank in the game, bravo. All warriors? you must have a lot of friends. All paladins hmm? Well that I believe.

    It's okay though, you can stay on your Paladin bandwagon, and preach the HUGE skillcap that Paladins need and apparently that all other DKs Warriors Druids and Monks are faceroll. Its better for us, the more Paladins there are, the less competition other tanks have.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Then I come in, make some reply that usually pisses of monks/DKs, because they can't face the truth. Then the truth just spiral downwards from there.
    And what truth may that be? You claiming paladin tanks have "hardest" active mitigation? Or most reliant on it? Lol. Again, try heal all 5 tanks without a clue and see who is easiest/hardest to keep up. Monk will be hardest. Not even close.
    Apart from that, paladin tank taking massive attack solo from Qiang? Cool. You bring this up assuming it'd be an edge over monks, just shows you don't really know monks cause they can easily do that as well. Surprised?

    Now if you could somehow link me that proof (as in, non-aneckdotal) of pala tanks outdps'ing brewmaster, we could start.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Finally, you do realize that ALL of Cata Blood was THE tank and was even THE tank during 5.0.
    quite sure block tanks were the go to tanks in t11 and t12, t13 blood came out on the top on most of the fights (except warmaster and spine iirc) since ams and in general a lot of magic stuff allowed them to cheese some mechanics

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    quite sure block tanks were the go to tanks in t11 and t12, t13 blood came out on the top on most of the fights (except warmaster and spine iirc) since ams and in general a lot of magic stuff allowed them to cheese some mechanics
    They were in t11 and then they changed (i.e nerfed) block. It hurt pallies more than it hurt warriors though.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Finally, you do realize that ALL of Cata Blood was THE tank and was even THE tank during 5.0.
    LULWUT

    Prot Paladins and Warriors were BY FAR the best tanks in T11 and T12. DKs were terrible in T11. Look at the buffs they got for T12 to even make them usable.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Zero raid utility? You obviously don't play a Blood DK. Monks however DO have a high skill cap. Finally, you do realize that ALL of Cata Blood was THE tank and was even THE tank during 5.0. Prot pallies only came to the forefront after the addition of Sanctity of Battle
    Sanciety of Battle was not added after 5.0, it was already there. And Blood DK was hardly THE tank. Blood DKs just made the most noise. That does not make the the best. In reality, they were quite the opposite. Blood DKs was not by any means stronger than the other tanks last tier, since so many fights favored a block tank which made warriors and paladins very strong.

    T11 and T12 block tanks were the way to go. Only in T13 did DKs start to pop up.

    All classes have a high skill cap aswell. Anyone disputing that is just ignorant.

    And yes, DKs raid utlity is AWESOME! Totally a lot better than the other tanks!
    /done argueing with person that cannot be reasoned with. Provide one reason why DKs raid utility is better than ANY other tank.


    Quote Originally Posted by Multiple People
    BRM got strongest AE
    There is one fight this tier with pure AE, and that is tortos. Go check Tortos top logs. Come back here after that.
    (Spoiler: 10N and 25N Prot pala on top. 10H and 25H, prot warrior on top followed by paladin)
    Really not gonna argue more about this. Since it is like argueing with a brick wall. Show me stats of BRMs topping all other tank classes on AE and I will be happy.

    For further analyse of AE damage output. Check the 10th reply in this thread.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rrior-Prot-AoE


    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    And hmm, 80% of tanks eh? I believe you must be the spokesperson of every tank in the game, bravo. All warriors? you must have a lot of friends. All paladins hmm? Well that I believe.

    It's okay though, you can stay on your Paladin bandwagon, and preach the HUGE skillcap that Paladins need and apparently that all other DKs Warriors Druids and Monks are faceroll. Its better for us, the more Paladins there are, the less competition other tanks have.
    Geez. Exaggerate more. Go and check that other "Strongest Tank" thread. Paladins had more votes than all other tanks combined. So you are saying that over 50% of the player base is protection paladins?... It is fairly obvious that the larger part of the community agrees that paladin tanks are stronger than other tanks. Not just paladins.

    And no, I did not claim that paladins have a huge skill cap and other tanks are faceroll. Though there is a clear difference. (Again can be supported by logs). Just go look up how the tank damage changes on certain fights. Take a fight that is a fairly good measuring stock. (a.k.a. not to many abusable gimmicks etc), and go through how the tank damage changes during the percentiles. You will notice the pattern.


    Anyway. I am out of this thread. Impossible to have a civil argument here. These threads are always fruitless. Since everybodies tank class is the best!
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sanciety of Battle was not added after 5.0, it was already there. And Blood DK was hardly THE tank. Blood DKs just made the most noise. That does not make the the best. In reality, they were quite the opposite. Blood DKs was not by any means stronger than the other tanks last tier, since so many fights favored a block tank which made warriors and paladins very strong.

    T11 and T12 block tanks were the way to go. Only in T13 did DKs start to pop up.

    All classes have a high skill cap aswell. Anyone disputing that is just ignorant.

    And yes, DKs raid utlity is AWESOME! Totally a lot better than the other tanks!
    /done argueing with person that cannot be reasoned with. Provide one reason why DKs raid utility is better than ANY other tank.




    There is one fight this tier with pure AE, and that is tortos. Go check Tortos top logs. Come back here after that.
    (Spoiler: 10N and 25N Prot pala on top. 10H and 25H, prot warrior on top followed by paladin)
    Really not gonna argue more about this. Since it is like argueing with a brick wall. Show me stats of BRMs topping all other tank classes on AE and I will be happy.

    For further analyse of AE damage output. Check the 10th reply in this thread.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rrior-Prot-AoE




    Geez. Exaggerate more. Go and check that other "Strongest Tank" thread. Paladins had more votes than all other tanks combined. So you are saying that over 50% of the player base is protection paladins?... It is fairly obvious that the larger part of the community agrees that paladin tanks are stronger than other tanks. Not just paladins.

    And no, I did not claim that paladins have a huge skill cap and other tanks are faceroll. Though there is a clear difference. (Again can be supported by logs). Just go look up how the tank damage changes on certain fights. Take a fight that is a fairly good measuring stock. (a.k.a. not to many abusable gimmicks etc), and go through how the tank damage changes during the percentiles. You will notice the pattern.


    Anyway. I am out of this thread. Impossible to have a civil argument here. These threads are always fruitless. Since everybodies tank class is the best!
    This entire post acts as the epitome to your ignorance of how other tank specs work. You mentioned how Blood DK's made the most noise and that made them popular. You don't think that's ironic in how Paladins got the most votes? Like i said, most people just go with what they hear, and like you said (ironically) Paladins are making the most noise; that does not mean they are the best (again, something you said).

    Also your tortos links are actually hilarious. you know why? Brewmasters while amazing AoE tanks for that fight (tortos) they are MUCH MUCH better tanks for tortos himself, with Stagger and being able to avoid the vast majority of snapping bites. So again.. It is Sample Bias. Also if you didn't know Paladins have a higher base HP pool than Brewmaster monks do, you know what that means? That means that they are more accustomed to tanking the bats on heroic (550k) hp than Brewmasters. In most cases if your raid leader is genius enough to stick a BrM on bats, he will most likely end up kiting it. It's not that we cannot survive the damage, its just that the buffer between our max hp and the 550k limit is smaller to us than any other class, which includes paladins. There is your other source of sample Bias.


    Now you mention damage taken, I don't know how to tell you this, but Brewmasters are bugged on WoL when it comes to damage taken, since WoL overcalculates damage. Our stagger mechanic on average reduces 50% of all hits and turns it into a DoT. What WoL does is that it takes the initial hit, and adds teh DoT on top of it, so you are getting damage out of nowhere. To add to this, you also have the fact that BrM's are also negation based and self Heal based tanks, just like DKs and Warriors. Though World of logs might look amazing to you, cross referencing two difference specs requires you to have a much higher understanding of both classes and not only one of them.

    But it's okay you're "out" of this thread, good riddance, the above most was mainly for the other people passing by who might be taken into your ignorant arguments. if they are, good for all of us, more paladins = less of the other specs and less competition.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    LULWUT

    Prot Paladins and Warriors were BY FAR the best tanks in T11 and T12. DKs were terrible in T11. Look at the buffs they got for T12 to even make them usable.
    I'm trying to make a good 10man hardmode setup and i'm undecided about tank setup. What do you think about gear optimization regarding tanks? Having a Prot Pally and Warrior, both share plate tank and shield. This is more of an issue in 10man where less gear drops. I'm thinking about either running plate tank-agi leather for tank, or plate tank-plate tank and bring an agi leather dps.

    How are monks doing? I know druids are fine and monks can bring a lot of damage with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1994and2011 View Post
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Magemaer View Post
    I'm trying to make a good 10man hardmode setup and i'm undecided about tank setup. What do you think about gear optimization regarding tanks? Having a Prot Pally and Warrior, both share plate tank and shield. This is more of an issue in 10man where less gear drops. I'm thinking about either running plate tank-agi leather for tank, or plate tank-plate tank and bring an agi leather dps.

    How are monks doing? I know druids are fine and monks can bring a lot of damage with them.
    On Topic but not directly related to quote above:

    I am a Brewmaster main, paladin alt. I have played a Prot Warrior in Vanilla/BC, Feral/Blood in ICC, and Monk in current tier. Paladins right now are the top tank across the board for the sheer fact they can negate so many mechanics right now. When you look at the top 10m guilds progressing, only 2 guilds don't use 2 Paladins in their raid, ours and one Euro. The one Euro guild uses a Prot Paladin, we use a Holy Paladin. Everyone else, double pally.

    Brews have a high skill cap, and when played well are arguably the 2nd best tank in current content. Just because World of Logs screws up our numbers, by adding in Stagger to totals, not accounting for Purifying Brew, etc it really messes with people's perception of the class. Healers love a well played monk.

    Now about the quote:

    Best tank setup? Protection Paladin and Brewmaster Monk.

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  13. #33
    Ty for your answer. Coming from a reference in 10man hardcore it means a lot.
    I am indeed fairly impressed with brewmaster monks, so far feeling that they bring more than guardian druids to a 10man setting.
    Last edited by Magemaer; 2013-03-25 at 02:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1994and2011 View Post
    Celestalon's World of Hybridcraft.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    When you look at the top 10m guilds progressing, only 2 guilds don't use 2 Paladins in their raid, ours and one Euro. The one Euro guild uses a Prot Paladin, we use a Holy Paladin. Everyone else, double pally.
    Last time I checked, Paragon used a druid and a paladin for everything but Dark Animus (where they used double paladins).

    Moonz also used a druid and a paladin for everything, including Dark Animus.

  15. #35
    I too would like to know of this so-called "raid utility" that blood apparently has.

    AMZ is hardly worth it as blood, especially given that you have to lose Purgatory to use it.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Last time I checked, Paragon used a druid and a paladin for everything but Dark Animus (where they used double paladins).

    Moonz also used a druid and a paladin for everything, including Dark Animus.
    You obviously didn't understand my meaning. I didn't say double Prot Paladins did I? I said they use 2 paladins total, 1 Prot, 1 Holy. We do not have a geared enough Prot paladin (my alt) so we are sort of missing out but still doing well enough to be competitive in 10m US.

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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    You obviously didn't understand my meaning. I didn't say double Prot Paladins did I? I said they use 2 paladins total, 1 Prot, 1 Holy. We do not have a geared enough Prot paladin (my alt) so we are sort of missing out but still doing well enough to be competitive in 10m US.
    Yeah, I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

  18. #38
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    Prot Paladin hands down - as usual one might add. Being a Guardian for a 10 man progression guild, I only really fall short, when it comes to utility like Hand of w/e.

    Imo it's about how you play your class first and foremost. My own guild is now running Guardian/Warrior, we used to go Guardian/Paladin. There's a difference for sure but with a Hpala in the raid, it's kinda okay.

    The thing is, that most people know what Paladins can do but they don't know a lot about other tanking classes. If you know how to use your utility as a Guardian, you're an asset for sure. Same goes for all tanking classes, if played to the their full potential, every single tanking class brings something unique.

    But as everyone here agrees on, Prot Paladin is just way too OP to not top the list. And tbh I'm a bit sour. Cause it's not fair to compare a God mode class to the other mortal classes. If I could, I'd go with Guardian/Pala for my own guild as well. That said, our Prot Warrior is good but again, Prot Paladin>Everything else.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Prot Paladin hands down - as usual one might add. Being a Guardian for a 10 man progression guild, I only really fall short, when it comes to utility like Hand of w/e.

    Imo it's about how you play your class first and foremost. My own guild is now running Guardian/Warrior, we used to go Guardian/Paladin. There's a difference for sure but with a Hpala in the raid, it's kinda okay.

    The thing is, that most people know what Paladins can do but they don't know a lot about other tanking classes. If you know how to use your utility as a Guardian, you're an asset for sure. Same goes for all tanking classes, if played to the their full potential, every single tanking class brings something unique.

    But as everyone here agrees on, Prot Paladin is just way too OP to not top the list. And tbh I'm a bit sour. Cause it's not fair to compare a God mode class to the other mortal classes. If I could, I'd go with Guardian/Pala for my own guild as well. That said, our Prot Warrior is good but again, Prot Paladin>Everything else.
    I have a druid alt and what do they bring? I don't know much about it, but so far i see HotW wrath spamming at the start, brez if you ever need another, some off heals, like a tranquility or two, and symbiosis. Is that it?
    In the leather sector i'm tending more towards monk currently as they bring more dmg, mobility, inc dmg control, and some different, possibly more useful utilities.
    If only druids could still bring a lot of dps going cat midfight.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1994and2011 View Post
    Celestalon's World of Hybridcraft.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Magemaer View Post
    I have a druid alt and what do they bring? I don't know much about it, but so far i see HotW wrath spamming at the start, brez if you ever need another, some off heals, like a tranquility or two, and symbiosis. Is that it?
    In the leather sector i'm tending more towards monk currently as they bring more dmg, mobility, inc dmg control, and some different, possibly more useful utilities.
    If only druids could still bring a lot of dps going cat midfight.
    HotW/Nature's Vigil, Tooth and Claw, Stampeding Roar, Typhoon/Ursol's, Innervate.

    I think you are severely underestimating guardians if you just brush them off as an inferior leather tank.
    HotW is crazy good, especially in 10 mans.

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