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  1. #41
    Half measure f2p doesn't work too well when you crate two classes of players: the haves and have nots. Esp. with the state of current f2p offering extremely high quality and full access.

    One of the best reviews I ever seen of Rift was; "It's eh. Good game but I wouldn't pay or it."

    That probably sums it the game for the majority of players that have played at one point or would consider playing. They certainly aren't gonna pay for xpac when the first half is obsolete. Free though it may be.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-03-25 at 03:48 PM.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    So that's a ~40 hour tutorial essentially for content that is 100% unrelated to those 40 hours.

    World of Warcraft and Rift have bimodal endgames. It's an absolute. Gameplay isn't opinion. It's quantifiable fact- the game of Rift as one engages in coordinated group content requires a set of skills and knowledge that is not present or demonstrated in the leveling up process.
    Sorry but this is trash (and as usual couched in overly flowery language - hint: simple is more understandable, and makes you seem less obnoxious).

    Movement, basic combat, basic tactics through PvP (CC) and world events/dungeons (Threat, positioning, etc) familiarity with your class as you explore different builds, the lore/story, all of these are valuable tools that enhance the endgame experience and are useful.

    Just because you've been playing so many games for so long Fencers that you've forgotten what it is like to be playing your first MMORPG doesn't mean that these things aren't of value to other players.
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  3. #43
    Threat and positing are important and emphasized in the leveling process of Rift? Give me examples where this is taught, mentioned, enforced, suggested &/or crucial in the process from 1-50 and again from 50-60.

    There are no world events which require a specific tanking role/class, by the way.

    The skills of group play are apart from those in the open world; dungeons and raids. There is no suggestion within the game either that this is a distinct set of mechanics apart from the over world experience either.

    What benefit does lore/story have to learning your class? What impact does it have in gameplay? Give me examples.

    What process does the leveling experience enforce or suggest in creating different builds? Which is directly oppositional to preset build, mind you.

    Rift is a bimodal MMO. Just as Warcraft. That is how these games are designed.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Sorry but this is trash (and as usual couched in overly flowery language - hint: simple is more understandable, and makes you seem less obnoxious).

    Movement, basic combat, basic tactics through PvP (CC) and world events/dungeons (Threat, positioning, etc) familiarity with your class as you explore different builds, the lore/story, all of these are valuable tools that enhance the endgame experience and are useful.

    Just because you've been playing so many games for so long Fencers that you've forgotten what it is like to be playing your first MMORPG doesn't mean that these things aren't of value to other players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Threat and positing are important and emphasized in the leveling process of Rift? Give me examples where this is taught, mentioned, enforced, suggested &/or crucial in the process from 1-50 and again from 50-60.

    There are no world events which require a specific tanking role/class, by the way.

    The skills of group play are apart from those in the open world; dungeons and raids. There is no suggestion within the game either that this is a distinct set of mechanics apart from the over world experience either.

    What benefit does lore/story have to learning your class? What impact does it have in gameplay? Give me examples.

    What process does the leveling experience enforce or suggest in creating different builds? Which is directly oppositional to preset build, mind you.

    Rift is a bimodal MMO. Just as Warcraft. That is how these games are designed.
    I think the issue here is what defines leveling for most people. I think that what Fencers is referring to is more like what I think of when I think of leveling. "Traditional" quest based leveling, not supplementing with too many Dungeons and PvP. As pointed out, the World Events, Zone Events and Rift do not really need or force a coordinated group mechanic, as with questing. Now if you are leveling via PvP and Dungeons, then yes, that experience does translate well to end game, but still doesn't carry things like Support, a Healer who focus on just AoE or ST or a DPS that must be a little less focused on survivability and eeking every ounce of DPS out of a build the way raiding does, not to mention Tanking, which unless you ran a lot of dungeons with some top notch DPS you have no practice in holding threat from a full raid going balls to the walls.

    So depending on choice of leveling path you could both be correct to a degree. However, I think that experience can be gained just fine from 50-60. I really think either 1-50 needs to go F2P and be treated as a separate game or 50-60 should stand on it's own as a separate game anyway. The 1-50 then additional 50-60 that takes as much time or more than 1-50 is just too great of a barrier of entry to the new player who just wants to see what the game is about. Those first 50 levels offer almost nothing you can't get 50-51.
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  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Threat and positing are important and emphasized in the leveling process of Rift? Give me examples where this is taught, mentioned, enforced, suggested &/or crucial in the process from 1-50 and again from 50-60.
    Dungeons. Using your pet to tank elite or difficult mobs. Using crowd control or learning to burst down specific targets in PvP. Please read my posts before you reply, I am repeating myself here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    There are no world events which require a specific tanking role/class, by the way.
    But there are those that require you to get out of the way of something no? Stop cherry picking, look at the overall picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The skills of group play are apart from those in the open world; dungeons and raids. There is no suggestion within the game either that this is a distinct set of mechanics apart from the over world experience either.
    Wat. This is exactly what I mean, be clear and concise or don't post. I don't have time nor the inclination to decipher this. This doesn't make you sound any smarter than just saying: The skills leveling up are totally different from those acquired in dungeons and raids at endgame because [insert reasons here].

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    What benefit does lore/story have to learning your class? What impact does it have in gameplay? Give me examples.
    Enjoyment, something you seem to have forgotten all about as you neatly carve up games to suit your views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    What process does the leveling experience enforce or suggest in creating different builds? Which is directly oppositional to preset build, mind you.
    So you're arguing that experimentation with different builds has no benefit for players at end game. They're better players for blindly following guides that others write? Can't say I agree with that position. Guides have a certain value for sure, but a player that truly understands his class is always going to be the guy that experimented not the one that blindly followed a guide. I mean, the guide writers are pretty much always experimenters which speaks for itself really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Rift is a bimodal MMO. Just as Warcraft. That is how these games are designed.
    No that is how you view them because the mechanics, playstyles, lore etc, everything that makes an MMO is after so many games not new to you any more. There is nothing for you to learn from leveling because you've done it and seen it all in the MMORPG world - but that doesn't mean that your view on leveling is true for everyone.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    If you don't understand why leveling is important, these words are lost on you.
    It's not about misunderstanding. You're objectively incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    There should definitely be disdain added to some of the attitudes here. Wanting to skip the whole leveling experience, and only caring about getting those precious end game purples should be seen as a bad thing.
    This is a function of the game design. "Leveling" is an artificial, game-y construct that is naught but a time-sink... a trope that exists at this point for it's own sake, for "fitting in" to the MMO mold. A Pavlovian cycle of limited value meant to keep your wallet open.

    However, the actual meat-and-potatoes is in raiding (and PvP to some extent, though many serious PvPers have a few bones to pick with Rift). You can say what you want about "those precious end game purples", but a gear treadmill is functionally no different or worse than leveling treadmill. What is different, however, are the challenges of progression raiding, hardmodes, competition and the like.

  7. #47
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    I like Tarien, but I don't see what he/she is getting at regarding Fencers being hard to understand / obnoxious, but I digress.

    Back to topic - Games like Rift and WoW - no matter how you try to fool yourself is about Raiding (and to a lesser degree, dungeons) and is generally what "most" people in my opinion regard as end-game. After the first few hundred Hunt Rifts, I pass. They're pretty much all zerg fests - sad as I defended them at one point. I am pretty sure they are, however, refreshing for new players - as I found them to be initially.

    I don't believe making 1~50 not "essential" is a detriment to the game as the nostalgia/lore die-hards (myself as one of them) will go back to those zones and complete them. On my one cleric, as I leveled, I completed every single quest in each zone. If I'm bored, I usually find myself going back to see the rest.

    The problem with Rift (and I can't comment on WoW, but I remember a similar experience) is that it is insanely out of balance regarding the low-level (and high level later) reputation treadmill. You can do every single quest at lower levels and you won't generally have enough for the items from the respective low level zone quartermasters. Some zones are much worse than others. I realize it is optional, but why even bother with putting those NPC's there in most cases? This low-level gear is obviously not for cosmetic purposes as they "look" low-level, but for the nice "blue" stat boost. The whole currency/rep is out. If you level with the odd Zone event to get currency, 99% of the time the gear is obsolete by the time you have the currency / rep for it.

    The rewards of the whole "low" game is out of sync - Reputation with factions should have a few additional mechanics where it takes into consideration how many Rifts in that zone you've done or how many quests in the zone too. People who want to max out faction rep STILL have to go back and grind dungeons / dailies in low level zones after finishing an entire quest/story line in a zone. Why bother with the low-level gear rewards that you never end up using at the appropriate level???

    What's the point of a lvl 15 blue item (besides cosmetic) when you're level 20 / 25? I find GW2's style a lot better in this regard - finish a quest heart hub for a guy and you can usually buy his stuff. Of course, I could write volumes on the problems with GW2. I still enjoy it every now and then, though - as a lot of the zones are still fresh to me.

    My point with the above is that the low-game is silly - except for the lore. People will either go back to it, or focus on end-game. Their choice.

    For me, it's really nice to see how bits of the low level game tie up later.

    It's also always interesting to me how one game / product draws support while another fails - regarding "Nice game, but I wouldn't pay for it". Once you've settled into a comfort zone of one product, it's hard to go back to something else (for me anyway) that you played before of a similar genre. For example, I couldn't go back and play Oblivion after playing Skyrim. I would rather try something new and fresh.

    I gave up being attached to a particular game ages ago. I tried almost every "WoW" killer and enjoyed my time in every one of them. I may not be playing them still, but every experience was fresh and exciting and LOTS of people to play with on release. More people in the world make the game more fun. GW2, for example, the first 60 or so levels were amazing!

    Trion need to really pick up their game (again) in 2.3 or you'll start seeing people looking at greener pastures. For me, the game is currently a bit lack-lustre in spite of me thinking it is technically superior to anything else out there.

    I suggested this whole post as more people in the world make the game more fun. I just want them to draw more people before some other new mmo does. The next WoW killer will probably finish off Rift subscription play in my opinion - or at least force it F2P - which may be a good thing, I guess.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post

    That probably sums it the game for the majority of players that have played at one point or would consider playing. They certainly aren't gonna pay for xpac when the first half is obsolete. Free though it may be.
    Do you really want to get me started on what a company should deliver for a sub fee compared to some other companies not delivering who charge the same fee? If you people do what I did quite awhile ago you will realize there is a section of the MMO population that can go rot in hell because I do not want to play a game with those hypocrites.

    These are the babies who cried for things, then got them from Trion and still quit. My philosophy on this debate is fuck em all. If they choose to play then good on them if not too bad. Let them drop cash in a free to play sink hole for all I care. It is there money. If Americans refuse to learn from what happened in the Korean market after most everything went free to play, then there is no saving these people.
    Last edited by Puremallace; 2013-03-26 at 12:41 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    If Americans refuse to learn from what happened in the Korean market after most everything went free to play, then there is no saving these people.
    Erm...what? There are plenty of countries not named Korea other than the US. What do they have to do with whatever you are angry about?
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Do you really want to get me started on what a company should deliver for a sub fee compared to some other companies not delivering who charge the same fee? If you people do what I did quite awhile ago you will realize there is a section of the MMO population that can go rot in hell because I do not want to play a game with those hypocrites.

    These are the babies who cried for things, then got them from Trion and still quit. My philosophy on this debate is fuck em all. If they choose to play then good on them if not too bad. Let them drop cash in a free to play sink hole for all I care. It is there money. If Americans refuse to learn from what happened in the Korean market after most everything went free to play, then there is no saving these people.
    Another classic Pure post that makes little to no sense. Please, do expand upon and explain what it is you are trying to say here.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    If Americans refuse to learn from what happened in the Korean market after most everything went free to play, then there is no saving these people.
    Um...

    Almost everything IS f2p already.

    Its like wow, rift, and eve are subscription and then about 20 other mmos are F2P.

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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Another classic Pure post that makes little to no sense. Please, do expand upon and explain what it is you are trying to say here.
    This F2P revolution as people call it has already been done. It resulted in mass dilution and the term free-to-play trash. You guys have to think of the consequences of every MMO on the market being free-to-play with no game dedication. People will start and stop MMO's as fast as they do with facebook games.

    The quality of the MMO will fall unless some company figures out how to monetize to stay alive. I mean we are on version 6 of EQ2's f2p system? This F2P movement is fueled by Blizzard treating their player base like shit for the last 8 years and they allowed this crap to even get traction.

    If you said F2P even 3 years ago everyone said free-to-play trash for a good reason.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This F2P revolution as people call it has already been done. It resulted in mass dilution and the term free-to-play trash. You guys have to think of the consequences of every MMO on the market being free-to-play with no game dedication. People will start and stop MMO's as fast as they do with facebook games.

    The quality of the MMO will fall unless some company figures out how to monetize to stay alive. I mean we are on version 6 of EQ2's f2p system? This F2P movement is fueled by Blizzard treating their player base like shit for the last 8 years and they allowed this crap to even get traction.

    If you said F2P even 3 years ago everyone said free-to-play trash for a good reason.
    And many of the models have improved since then.
    Less and less people have that view, especially with so many good games offering f2p options.
    Why is it you can't be dedicated to a game that is f2p exactly? I know many people who are dedicated to f2p games.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    And many of the models have improved since then.
    Less and less people have that view, especially with so many good games offering f2p options.
    Why is it you can't be dedicated to a game that is f2p exactly? I know many people who are dedicated to f2p games.
    Take LoL for example. Pretty popular free-to-play game. They have to roll out a new super duper cool champion every patch to maintain funding. Now the older champions get out dated..screwed if you got one of them. Free-to-play is the illusion of being free.

    To experience half the features I get for a $60 a year sub fee with Rift in other F2P games I would have to pay up. This is a socialist theory of gaming that will fail.
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  15. #55
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This F2P movement is fueled by Blizzard treating their player base like shit for the last 8 years and they allowed this crap to even get traction.

    If you said F2P even 3 years ago everyone said free-to-play trash for a good reason.
    This is a new one. Blizzard is some 'to blame' for F2P, implying that F2P is bad and that they 'allowed' it to happen. Oook... Who are we to blame for clearances/sales in stores, what about buy one get ones? Who is to blame that every single product in the world doesn't come with a flat rate and flat amount of qualifications?

    Blizzard is to blame for somehow allowing the market to be diverse... Shame on them. I can't find one bit of sense in anything you are saying.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Take LoL for example. Pretty popular free-to-play game. They have to roll out a new super duper cool champion every patch to maintain funding. Now the older champions get out dated..screwed if you got one of them. Free-to-play is the illusion of being free.

    To experience half the features I get for a $60 a year sub fee with Rift in other F2P games I would have to pay up.
    A lot of the older champions get revamped or are still very strong. (IE: twisted fates been revamped, what? 3 times?)

    And yeah... You pay for features in a f2p game. You get to choose what things you want or do not want rather than being charged a flat fee.
    Do you not like having choice?
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  17. #57
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Take LoL for example. Pretty popular free-to-play game. They have to roll out a new super duper cool champion every patch to maintain funding. Now the older champions get out dated..screwed if you got one of them. Free-to-play is the illusion of being free.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Do you know how much they make a DAY?
    Not to mention you are criticizing them for updating their game and giving their players new 'content'. Ooook. WoW should have never introduced new classes, Rift should have never had new souls. Damn them for alienating the old school players in their quest for more money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    To experience half the features I get for a $60 a year sub fee with Rift in other F2P games I would have to pay up. This is a socialist theory of gaming that will fail.
    Depends on the game, most of them now this is proven to be completely untrue. Lol at bringing up socialism. I have no other non bannable comment on that subject.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Do you know how much they make a DAY?
    Omg, too much money.
    They like... controlled a forth of the pax floor or something.
    It was like a victory lap lol
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Omg, too much money.
    They like... controlled a forth of the pax floor or something.
    It was like a victory lap lol
    Please show me this shining success story in the MMO field? You guys mentioned there are like 20 F2P mmo's. Where is this king of the F2P mmo's just dominating the space?
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  20. #60
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Please show me this shining success story in the MMO field? You guys mentioned there are like 20 F2P mmo's. Where is this king of the F2P mmo's just dominating the space?
    Please show me anything that isn't WoW dominating the space. Please tell me what this has to do with anything you're trying to say and what you are actually trying to say because it literally doesn't make sense.
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