MOP, To Little or to Much

[Frozen Death Knight]

I have said this in other threads on the site, but it should be obvious what's going on here. LFR is the evolution of the dungeon. You get gear drops, you get valor points, you can blindly queue up for it - and the development of LFR is like non-existant once the raids are created. I personally think they might throw you a bone (dungeon) here or there ... but I do believe the future of dungeons in wow - is LFR.

I think this, as well. It makes sense, considering how problematic Dungeons mid-expansion have become for Raiding progression, over the years. By the looks of it, Scenarios and the Heroic versions will fill the gap that mid-expansion Dungeons will leave, which will allow for more diverse gameplay than the typical 5-man content since it can potentially range from solo play to up to 40-man play in group size.

I find that aspect of Scenarios to be quite attractive and if they manage to pull off more stuff like the Green Fire Scenario for Warlocks, I think I will enjoy it quite a lot.

Edit: Also, since they said that there will be larger raids, I think the non-dungeon decision is a direct result of that. Can't say I have much reason to complain, then. =P

[MoanaLisa]

No we can't. Blizzard themselves pretty much admitted that 5.0 dailys were as mandatory as it gets and they changed 5.1 and 5.2 to not be the same.

What they said was that they understood that people felt that dailies were mandatory. That people were of the opinion that dailies were mandatory. They did not say that dailies were mandatory.

There really is a difference.

The rest of your fallacies--supposed or otherwise--are something you'll have to take up with Blizzard. I suppose that you know better than they or any of us how they are staffed, how their teams are structured and precisely what their capabilities are and how they are slacking. Let them know that you're onto them.

[Glorious Leader]

What they said was that they understood that people felt that dailies were mandatory. That people were of the opinion that dailies were mandatory. They did not say that dailies were mandatory.

There really is a difference.

No their isn't. I'm sorry but their really isn't. As far as I know Blizzard has never said any content is mandatory, even in cataclysm but lots of content has always felt mandatory. All that means is for all intents and purposes feel mandatory is the same thing as being mandatory. The only things that are mandatory to play the game are the computer requirements and the sub fee and you can play on pirate servers and get by the sub fee. But playing the game itself isn't mandatory either. Their is qualitatively ZERO difference between dailies feeling mandatory and dailies being mandatory. The developers are just saving face because well this argument has exploded on the forums and they don't want to piss people off.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I need to calm down? I'm not the one with the persecution complex. I'm all for you having an opinion. I just disagree with it. I'm not taking any offense and I'm sorry your uncomfortable but you can't expect me to simple agree with you because my responses make you feel uncomfortable. If my responses bug you that much then maybe you should really reconsider your opinion. If you were so strong and convinced about it you probably wouldn't care or feel uncomfortable about it.

Did he not just say that you two had nothing to talk about because of those disagreements? How exactly does that translate to him wanting you to agree with him?

[Glorious Leader]

Did he not just say that you two had nothing to talk about because of those disagreements? How exactly does that translate to him wanting you to agree with him?

Because my opinion upsets his and makes him uncomfortable apparently. Since my opinion conflicts with his it leads me to believe the only way to make him feel "comfrotable" would be to agree and even then I'm not sure. what do you want me to tell you? people read all kinds of things into what I post it's not my problem.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Because my opinion upsets his and makes him uncomfortable apparently. Since my opinion conflicts with his it leads me to believe the only way to make him feel "comfrotable" would be to agree and even then I'm not sure. what do you want me to tell you? people read all kinds of things into what I post it's not my problem.

You are making a large fuzz over his "uncomfortable" line. It was not really that big of a deal, since the point he was making was all the text above that.

[Grummgug]

I big reason why I quit playing WoW was because I was sick and tired of Blizzard constantly overhauling everything just for the sake of change. I don't want to keep learning and relearning everything. If I want to study things over and over and over, I'd rather study something actually USEFUL, like economics, home repair, gardening, or something.

I just want to play a social RPG with friends. Can they please stop pushing so many changes and just do that?

[Glorious Leader]

You are making a large fuzz over his "uncomfortable" line. It was not really that big of a deal, since the point he was making was all the text above that.

He keeps bringing it up. This isn't the only thread he jumps at me for some perceived insult or hostility.

[Dald]

Too little
Too much
I'm fairly happy with MoP, especially with the upcoming 5.3 pvp changes.

[PrairieChicken]

No, I'm just not a fan of that design strategy. I don't think people should be able to be geared in two days. It leads to you guys not putting any effort in the raid groups you eventually feel entitled to. I was a raid leader during 4.3, I saw what the easy gear did. It made it really hard to find any half decent player. You need to calm down and realize that people have opinions. If you like one design strategy and I like one that is completely opposite, there's not much discussion or mind changing to be had. And you're taking a bit too much offense from some of the stuff I'm saying. That's uncomfortable.

And facerolling heroics and AFKing in LFR and grinding daily quests that 7 year old can do makes you a decent player?

[Hammerschlag]

Personally, Mists of Pandaria is one of my least favorite expansions mostly due to the lore (which I don't care for too much). I do, however, love asian themes and culture, which makes me enjoy it all the more! I would say it is my 2nd least favorite expansion, Cataclysm as the least. Mists of Pandaria just does not have that signiture Warcraft feel to it. Great game, and content, just doesn't fit in this game.

[Glorious Leader]

And facerolling heroics and AFKing in LFR and grinding daily quests that 7 year old can do makes you a decent player?

And it's not like finding a decent player is easier now. In fact it isn't. All the changes have just served to push more players into LFR and recruiting decent players is harder than it's ever been.

[Deleted]

Everyone has opinions about something. Why are we still, after so many years, still discussing why person 1s opinion is better/matters more than person 2s opinion?

[Ielenia]

mandatory LFR and more dailies

Seriously? Mandatory? Just WHERE did you read that LFR is mandatory? I'm dying to know. Because as a fresh 90 I can get into Mogu'Shan Vaults or Throne of Thunder with no problem at all. Unlike Heart of Fear or Terrace of Eternal Spring, because to get in HoF you MUST have finish MSV, and to get in ToES you MUST have finished MSV and ToF. THAT is mandatory. Read up 'mandatory' in the dictionary, please.

To be perfectly blunt as a paying customer it's not my concern how they do it. If it takes them hiring more people than do that. I don't expect dungeons every 2 months but by the same token no more dungeons for the rest of MoP and only 9 dungeons at launch is paltry.

As a paying customer myself, it IS my conceron how they do it. And it should be yours too. Why? Because if, as you said, they hire more people to do 'that', that means more expenses which means the additional expenses will be passed on to us which means our subscription fees will go higher, which would piss the community more than simply 'no dungeons this patch'.

Also, as people pointed out, dungeons get boring too. Speaking for myself, I'm kinda bored of dungeons. Why? The moment you start getting into the very LFR raid, it means dungeons basically hold no loot upgrades for you. So unless you're queueing up with guild members or friends to do dungeon achievements... well, let's say I get more 'valor points per hour' by doing dailies. Not to mention I can do those at my own pace. Rushing like the wind or doing them for five or so minutes, pausing, then doing more dailies.

I do dailies while queueing up for dungeons. If, by the time I'm done with dailies I didn't get in a dungeon, I'd just go do a scenario. Quick queue, quick instance, good enough valor reward. It's not like I need upgrades now that I'm doing LFR. And if I do need gear from LFD? Well... I'd do dailies while queueing up for dungeons. If, by the time I'm done with dailies I didn't get in a dungeon, I'd just go do a scenario. Quick queue, quick instance, good enough valor reward. And then buy a rep valor piece.

And, as a last note, Blizzard said: "No plans for any more dungeons". They didn't say "We're done with dungeons. Nope. No more dungeons. At all. Never more. Never ever ever!" Plans can change.

[Deleted]

Yep, lots of content doesn't mean better content, dungeons added later in the expansion used to be really fun, dailies and scenarios on the other hand are boring as hell, just my opinion of course.

[Tomservo]

I fail to see how you can have "too much" in an MMO. The first M needs to hold its merit. I do agree that dungeons are getting extremely stale and dusty right now, but they offer little reward to me, so I don't do them. Scenarios I find to be quite exciting.

"massively" is an adverb to describe the "multiplayer" aspect of MMO. as in, a whole lot of people playing on a given server.

[ihyln]

People get bored of running dungeons too. It's not just scenarios. I disagree with you completely on dailies. You don't have to do any of them to have a successful and viable character at end game.

You didn't mention the work involved with creating art assets for dungeons and raids. The work to do this for new dungeons is high and will come at the expense of raids. The work to do the art for scenarios is practically nothing as they so far have used existing art.

There are lots of threads running now about scenarios given the news about the addition of heroic versions. Read through them. It's not like everyone thinks they are terrible. Not having to queue for half an hour makes a practical difference to people.

Anyway the trade between scenarios and dungeons is more about the cost in time and effort for the art and making bigger and better raids.

So for people who raid and don't do dailies what is there to do? Why do you constantly defend taking choices away from players? I enjoyed running dungeons with friends to help gear alts and strangers if I felt like tanking. You are advocating stupid, repetitive, and SOLO gameplay in a MMO. I know you are a mod here but seriously enough with the blizzard cowtowing.

Making content is difficult? That is your excuse as to why we have to suffer? Long queuetimes? Again, our suffering is because of who? Tell me who wants to sit in old LFR queues because Blizzard's idea is to play catchup in old raids? There is a reason why WOTLK was so popular because it was fun to play not only with the class that you wanted but with alts and friends.

[Deleted]

The only thing i like about scenario's is the fact that there is no que, thats about it, never do them because i always get jp or 450's from the bag (and i always buy a pvp blue set).

[wariofan1]

Yep, lots of content doesn't mean better content, dungeons added later in the expansion used to be really fun, dailies and scenarios on the other hand are boring as hell, just my opinion of course.

Dungeons added later in the expansion were always, in my opinion, the worst dungeons for each of their respective expansion.

The Hour of Twilight was really bad, and these days it would just have been a scenario.
The Well of Eternity was just a movie theater, you didn't really have to do much, everything was just happening for you, and again, could easily have been a scenario.
End Time depended on which rooms you got, happy days if you got Baine, shitty days if you got Jaina or Tyrande.
Zul'Gurub v2.0 was okay, the only boss I really enjoyed was Venoxis, the others were pretty boring.
Zul'Aman was okay, but it felt really odd that an old raid had been degraded to a timed event.

If you compare these to the fantastic Heroics that were introduced at Cataclysm's release it gets rather sad, Stonecore was amazing, Vortex Pinnacle was amazing, BRC was really good, Throne of the Tides was also really good, and the rest went from average to bad, with Halls of Origination being the only bad one at release, where as all the dungeons that were introduced later on in the expansion all go in the bad/mediocre category.

Let's take WotLK too:
Trial of the Champion was extremely forgettable, the mounted combat as always sucked, Eadric was really bland and The Black Knight was a cool concept but wasn't executed very well, only Paletress was good and that's only for nostalgia reasons when she summons visions of the old bosses.
The Forge of Souls starts the trio of the worst dungeons ever in WoW, a 2-boss dungeon who's only memorable thing is the fact that the last boss screams in your face, else it's another dungeon where you could just ignore all mechanics and zerg through it.
Pit of Saron was a joke, every boss was a joke, even Tyrannus was an unintentional joke (at least I presume so) with his stupid "Power OVERWHELMING" line being spammed all the time, and once again all the boss battles sucked except for Ick maybe who had that chase mechanic, which has been done to death now.

And lastly we have Halls of Reflection, which deserves a section for itself since it was so bad. Firstly we have 5 incredibly tedious and boring trash packs, all which has to be done over again if the tank accidentally falls asleep, which I wouldn't blame him for. Queue boring zerg fight #1. Then we get 5 more of the same trash packs, and then we enter boring zerg fight #2. Then.... that happened... I wouldn't even call it a boss fight, because it really just is a gauntlet event, it's like calling the triceratops in one of the Crash Bandicoot 3 stages for a boss, it just isn't, it's a damn gauntlet event, like the Blood Elves in SWP after Brutallus, the little murloc guys in Throne of the Tides before 1st boss and so on. Anyways, Lich King proves once again that he's a fucking idiot when he lets us live and gets crushed by a few boulders, and there goes our oh so mighty expansion villain, beaten by us even before the raid. Without a doubt the worst dungeon ever, and it's incredible how it could actually dissapoint seeing that Wrath had already set the standard incredibly low right from the start.

As you can imagine I was never too keen on these dungeons that were added mid/late-expansion, they weren't fun the first time and certainly wasn't the next 20 times either, and the fact that they replaced great raids like BWD, Firelands, Ulduar and Naxxramas in progression made them even worse. From these experiences I'm ever so grateful that Mists won't suffer from the same disease as Wrath and Cata, which in the end was what limited their content and made me dislike them in the end.

Of course this is all subjective, shouldn't need to be mentioned but someone is gonna call me out on trying to speak of these as facts, when they of course aren't.

And I think since I'm posting in this thread, it's only fair that I also contribute to the actual thread topic, at least just briefly. I think that with 5.2 Mists finally made dailies optional, I don't do them, and I'm doing absolutely fine, experiencing everything I want to. Right now it's very balanced to me, sure we won't get anymore new dungeons, but as you might have figured out by now I'm not weeping over that one bit, it certainly satisfies all of my needs right now, and I can't really see how one would prefer dungeons over raids in any shape or form, but to each his own I guess.

Making content is difficult? That is your excuse as to why we have to suffer? Long queuetimes? Again, our suffering is because of who? Tell me who wants to sit in old LFR queues because Blizzard's idea is to play catchup in old raids? There is a reason why WOTLK was so popular because it was fun to play not only with the class that you wanted but with alts and friends.

Suffering might be quite the extreme word, unless your impatience sits behind you and whips you I doubt that's the right choice of word. If you're literally suffering, which I doubt that you are, I think it's time to quit.

[Milkyz]

(...)I know you are a mod here but seriously enough with the blizzard cowtowing.(...)

"If you disagree with me, you are a blizzard fanboy". heh.

(...)That is your excuse as to why we have to suffer?(...)

I really hope that by "we" you don't mean the whole playerbase.

Blizzard's idea is to play catchup in old raids

Solely Blizzard idea. No thread was EVER created saying how much better it was when you had to gear through raids.



I like the idea of no dungeons to catch up. There is plenty of MSV/HoF/ToES groups on Trade (at least on my realm), even though we have ToT available. So it's not just "gearing through LFR". You can do old content for quick gearing up in preparation to ToT. Abundant coins + 10% nerf + increased chance on bonus roll.

That being said, this is my point of view. This is not the whole playerbase point of view. Not how "we" feel. Please understand that.