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  1. #61
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark Son View Post
    Yep, lots of content doesn't mean better content, dungeons added later in the expansion used to be really fun, dailies and scenarios on the other hand are boring as hell, just my opinion of course.
    Dungeons added later in the expansion were always, in my opinion, the worst dungeons for each of their respective expansion.

    The Hour of Twilight was really bad, and these days it would just have been a scenario.
    The Well of Eternity was just a movie theater, you didn't really have to do much, everything was just happening for you, and again, could easily have been a scenario.
    End Time depended on which rooms you got, happy days if you got Baine, shitty days if you got Jaina or Tyrande.
    Zul'Gurub v2.0 was okay, the only boss I really enjoyed was Venoxis, the others were pretty boring.
    Zul'Aman was okay, but it felt really odd that an old raid had been degraded to a timed event.

    If you compare these to the fantastic Heroics that were introduced at Cataclysm's release it gets rather sad, Stonecore was amazing, Vortex Pinnacle was amazing, BRC was really good, Throne of the Tides was also really good, and the rest went from average to bad, with Halls of Origination being the only bad one at release, where as all the dungeons that were introduced later on in the expansion all go in the bad/mediocre category.

    Let's take WotLK too:
    Trial of the Champion was extremely forgettable, the mounted combat as always sucked, Eadric was really bland and The Black Knight was a cool concept but wasn't executed very well, only Paletress was good and that's only for nostalgia reasons when she summons visions of the old bosses.
    The Forge of Souls starts the trio of the worst dungeons ever in WoW, a 2-boss dungeon who's only memorable thing is the fact that the last boss screams in your face, else it's another dungeon where you could just ignore all mechanics and zerg through it.
    Pit of Saron was a joke, every boss was a joke, even Tyrannus was an unintentional joke (at least I presume so) with his stupid "Power OVERWHELMING" line being spammed all the time, and once again all the boss battles sucked except for Ick maybe who had that chase mechanic, which has been done to death now.

    And lastly we have Halls of Reflection, which deserves a section for itself since it was so bad. Firstly we have 5 incredibly tedious and boring trash packs, all which has to be done over again if the tank accidentally falls asleep, which I wouldn't blame him for. Queue boring zerg fight #1. Then we get 5 more of the same trash packs, and then we enter boring zerg fight #2. Then.... that happened... I wouldn't even call it a boss fight, because it really just is a gauntlet event, it's like calling the triceratops in one of the Crash Bandicoot 3 stages for a boss, it just isn't, it's a damn gauntlet event, like the Blood Elves in SWP after Brutallus, the little murloc guys in Throne of the Tides before 1st boss and so on. Anyways, Lich King proves once again that he's a fucking idiot when he lets us live and gets crushed by a few boulders, and there goes our oh so mighty expansion villain, beaten by us even before the raid. Without a doubt the worst dungeon ever, and it's incredible how it could actually dissapoint seeing that Wrath had already set the standard incredibly low right from the start.

    As you can imagine I was never too keen on these dungeons that were added mid/late-expansion, they weren't fun the first time and certainly wasn't the next 20 times either, and the fact that they replaced great raids like BWD, Firelands, Ulduar and Naxxramas in progression made them even worse. From these experiences I'm ever so grateful that Mists won't suffer from the same disease as Wrath and Cata, which in the end was what limited their content and made me dislike them in the end.

    Of course this is all subjective, shouldn't need to be mentioned but someone is gonna call me out on trying to speak of these as facts, when they of course aren't.

    And I think since I'm posting in this thread, it's only fair that I also contribute to the actual thread topic, at least just briefly. I think that with 5.2 Mists finally made dailies optional, I don't do them, and I'm doing absolutely fine, experiencing everything I want to. Right now it's very balanced to me, sure we won't get anymore new dungeons, but as you might have figured out by now I'm not weeping over that one bit, it certainly satisfies all of my needs right now, and I can't really see how one would prefer dungeons over raids in any shape or form, but to each his own I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    Making content is difficult? That is your excuse as to why we have to suffer? Long queuetimes? Again, our suffering is because of who? Tell me who wants to sit in old LFR queues because Blizzard's idea is to play catchup in old raids? There is a reason why WOTLK was so popular because it was fun to play not only with the class that you wanted but with alts and friends.
    Suffering might be quite the extreme word, unless your impatience sits behind you and whips you I doubt that's the right choice of word. If you're literally suffering, which I doubt that you are, I think it's time to quit.
    Last edited by MasterOfKnees; 2013-03-23 at 08:59 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    (...)I know you are a mod here but seriously enough with the blizzard cowtowing.(...)
    "If you disagree with me, you are a blizzard fanboy". heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    (...)That is your excuse as to why we have to suffer?(...)
    I really hope that by "we" you don't mean the whole playerbase.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    Blizzard's idea is to play catchup in old raids
    Solely Blizzard idea. No thread was EVER created saying how much better it was when you had to gear through raids.



    I like the idea of no dungeons to catch up. There is plenty of MSV/HoF/ToES groups on Trade (at least on my realm), even though we have ToT available. So it's not just "gearing through LFR". You can do old content for quick gearing up in preparation to ToT. Abundant coins + 10% nerf + increased chance on bonus roll.

    That being said, this is my point of view. This is not the whole playerbase point of view. Not how "we" feel. Please understand that.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Milkwolfgang View Post
    "If you disagree with me, you are a blizzard fanboy". heh.



    I really hope that by "we" you don't mean the whole playerbase.



    Solely Blizzard idea. No thread was EVER created saying how much better it was when you had to gear through raids.



    I like the idea of no dungeons to catch up. There is plenty of MSV/HoF/ToES groups on Trade (at least on my realm), even though we have ToT available. So it's not just "gearing through LFR". You can do old content for quick gearing up in preparation to ToT. Abundant coins + 10% nerf + increased chance on bonus roll.

    That being said, this is my point of view. This is not the whole playerbase point of view. Not how "we" feel. Please understand that.
    1. Go through his post history. He defends Blizzard at every turn. I don't mind arguing with people but he's clearly playing a certain side. I'm not sure where you are going with this so I'll wait patiently.

    2. "We" as in people who like to play alts and don't want to be punished with long queues just to play them.

    Don't use dumb strawman arguments to make your point as it ruins your credibility. You like gearing up in LFR? Great. I don't.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by wariofan1 View Post
    And I think since I'm posting in this thread, it's only fair that I also contribute to the actual thread topic, at least just briefly. I think that with 5.2 Mists finally made dailies optional, I don't do them, and I'm doing absolutely fine, experiencing everything I want to. Right now it's very balanced to me, sure we won't get anymore new dungeons, but as you might have figured out by now I'm not weeping over that one bit, it certainly satisfies all of my needs right now, and I can't really see how one would prefer dungeons over raids in any shape or form, but to each his own I guess.
    Says it all, really. I'm not on the scenario bandwagon, I think they're a boring snoozefest and I'm pretty sure I haven't even done them all, but I really, really *really* do not miss having extra dungeons. There's plenty to do still and I'm having a blast doing it.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by wariofan1 View Post
    And I think since I'm posting in this thread, it's only fair that I also contribute to the actual thread topic, at least just briefly. I think that with 5.2 Mists finally made dailies optional, I don't do them, and I'm doing absolutely fine, experiencing everything I want to. Right now it's very balanced to me, sure we won't get anymore new dungeons, but as you might have figured out by now I'm not weeping over that one bit, it certainly satisfies all of my needs right now, and I can't really see how one would prefer dungeons over raids in any shape or form, but to each his own I guess.



    Suffering might be quite the extreme word, unless your impatience sits behind you and whips you I doubt that's the right choice of word. If you're literally suffering, which I doubt that you are, I think it's time to quit.
    Really? This is your input? Suffering for me might not be the same as it is for you. It doesn't mean actual pain. Why am I even arguing this? Unbelievable.

    You ever hear of Stockholm syndrome? Here we are with Blizzard taking away more and more playstyle choices yet here you are extolling the virtues of having LESS content as some kind of good thing. Mind boggling. Can I ask how old you are?
    Last edited by ihyln; 2013-03-23 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    Don't use dumb strawman arguments to make your point as it ruins your credibility. You like gearing up in LFR? Great. I don't.
    As long as you don't evoke the "majority" trump card, it's alright and truly valid to express your opinion.

    I'm just worried about:

    - a change is implemented and it matches my playstyle but it doesn't match someone else's: Good move Blizzard.
    - a change is implemented and it matches someone else's playstyle but it doesn't match mine: Bad move Blizzard.

    I enjoyed Wotlk implementation as well, but mostly the part of doing Naxx / ToC10/25 runs to gear up alts. Running 5-mans endlessly (normal ToC5 for trinkets anyone?) was a bit too much.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by wariofan1 View Post
    Of course this is all subjective, shouldn't need to be mentioned but someone is gonna call me out on trying to speak of these as facts, when they of course aren't.
    You have some good points but despite the bad things I liked them for the atmosphere and the connections with the lore and I think most bosses were fun, the only one I didn't like so much was trial of the champion because of mounted combat and the fact it had no lore. I agree most of the cataclysm starting dungeons were pretty good, I don't like the ones in MoP so that's another reason why I'm not happy with this change.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    After reading the wowinsider post linked to Andy Gavin's (the co-creator of Crash Bandicoot and Jak & Daxter) giving his opinion of each wow expansion and his thoughts on it, which I found a very good read being from the perspective of another game designer, it had me thinking about the current issues with wow's current expansion.

    I think, the best way to break down mists, well I do love this expansion don't get me wrong, the design, the story, the way certain things felt changed for the better (unlike cataclysm), there are still rogue elements in mists that makes it that bad part of any meal you wish you could avoid but can't.

    After it was announced recently that there will be no more dungeons introduced into mists of pandaria, and yet they outright said there will be more and more dailies, I think this was when it became obvious blizzard was turning a blind eye at what people have been saying for months now. Its an imbalance, people have gotten rigidly bored of doing dailies quests, just about everything you do outside of raiding involved dailies quests, and people have been speaking out against it.

    So, well we will have more daily quests coming in the next major patches, and scenarions, which blizzard seems to think went over so well they can now replace dungeons, they have decided to just veto making anymore dungeons in the expansion as a result. More and more dailies, more scenarions, and no more dungeons, making mists the expansion with the least number of dungeons.

    Now to me, this is putting more weights into one side of the scales and not enough in the other side, I personally found scenarios, well interesting first time around, got kinda boring after doing them several times. And the number of dailies in mists, nothing can be done without doing like 60-70 dailies eac

    Now, going back to the days of TBC and wrath, what I often found was having a balace of dungeons, dailies and whatever else made things feel far less monotonous, because it broke up your routine. You could do a few dungeons and try to get some gear from that, or do some dailies to purchase gear later on. And this worked well, even in cataclysm, with the release of the 3 added dungeons at the end or the 3 added dungeons in wrath at the end.

    Now your probably gonna say 'but we will have scenarios in the follow patches', they worked for a few tries but after a while people will get really bored of running them. And without any new dungeons and tons more daily quests, this routine people have grown to dislike in mists will become even more of a drag for them to keep up to. At least if they had some new dungeons fomr gear upgrades to allow you to get into the current content, like it has done in wrath and cata, it gives something else to work towards.

    Honestly, I like dungeons, just like pvpers like arena and BGs. If they didn't release new arena or bg setups, there would be fur flying for that. So why would there be this imbalance of having so much more one one thing, and nothing of the other?
    You lost me when you talked about all the great things there were to do in TBC/wrath and couldn't name anything specific outside of dungeons and dailies. I'd much rather do LFR or the weekly rare quest on the 5.2 island than spam dungeons all week to be completely honest. There's far more things to do in MoP than previous xpacs.

  9. #69
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    1. Go through his post history. He defends Blizzard at every turn. I don't mind arguing with people but he's clearly playing a certain side. I'm not sure where you are going with this so I'll wait patiently.
    Yeah, I'm fairly content with and like the game at present. I'm not aware that that disqualifies me from having an opinion. There are things about the game that I don't care for, but I tend to be well-balanced to the point where as long as I have other things to do, I'm fine that others like those things. I say what I think. Being a mod has nothing to do with it.

    On a side note: Don't make this about me. Make your points and stay on-topic. I'm not the topic here. 'Nuff said.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-03-23 at 10:37 PM.
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  10. #70
    I didn't bring you up as a topic. I'm replying to the other guy but since you brought up YOUR opinion then that is up for discussion so if you don't want your opinions debated then you shouldn't post. Pretty simple. Put your ego aside for one thread, it's not about you.

    P.S. Don't make it about me either. 'Nuff said.

  11. #71
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    5 man dungeons got dull.... Really boring.. And it's not the dungeon quality at all. It's the repetition. I strongly believe that's also the reason why Blizzard/the game struggles with the decline of raid attendance. One may call it anecdotal, but the numbers of players I know in the game and who run 5 mans on a daily basis for valor points has declined immense. So have the numbers of players who raid committed every week anything else than a few LFR's on one day. It used to be different.... 5 man, every day.. Raiding 2 - 3 times a week. Almost everyone I know and knew.
    At some point it just gets so repetitive and boring. It could be the most epic raid ever made, the most jaw dropping 5 man instance, and it would still feel repetitive and boring after a few times.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    What they said was that they understood that people felt that dailies were mandatory. That people were of the opinion that dailies were mandatory. They did not say that dailies were mandatory.
    You are delusional if you think any content in a video game is mandatory. What matters is if it is fun ( games are supposed to be fun) and if a lot of people are doing it even know they are not having any fun then it is bad design.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    You missed the point, I'm not uncomfortable with the security of my opinion, I'm uncomfortable with how much you're getting worked up about this. Your text is getting increasingly combative.
    You need to chill out. You're being very aggressive for no reason. I'm not sure if its trolling or whatever.

  14. #74
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    Really? This is your input? Suffering for me might not be the same as it is for you. It doesn't mean actual pain. Why am I even arguing this? Unbelievable.

    You ever hear of Stockholm syndrome? Here we are with Blizzard taking away more and more playstyle choices yet here you are extolling the virtues of having LESS content as some kind of good thing. Mind boggling. Can I ask how old you are?
    Here's suffering for you:

    verb (used without object)
    1. to undergo or feel pain or distress: The patient is still suffering.
    2. to sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss: One's health suffers from overwork. The business suffers from lack of capital.
    3. to undergo a penalty, as of death: The traitor was made to suffer on the gallows.
    4. to endure pain, disability, death, etc., patiently or willingly.

    Suffering can only mean pain in the long run, you can't just say "Suffering for me might not be the same as it is for you.", that's like someone trying to justify himself calling a horse for a pig, when there's no way around it, a horse is a horse, suffering is the same as pain.

    The fact is that we aren't getting less relevant content, note the word relevant, not new. Let's use Trial of the Champion as an example, it invalidated 14 bosses, not counting Naxx, OS and EoE, in favor of 4 bosses, that's less content for you. The HoT dungeons invalidated 4 raids in favor of 3 dungeons, again, less content for alts. This takes away a lot for alts, and I frankly don't like running the same shitty dungeons 20 times each again, the fact that new dungeons also come in such low quantity (and quality) forces you to do them repeatedly, and they get tiring extremely fast. So really, you're actually the one trying to justify less content here.

    Anyways, I don't feel like giving my age to some random angry internet guy, age has nothing to do with how someone prefers his content, what each individual person enjoys differs a lot for everyone, no matter age, it's irrelevant to this discussion and thus I don't feel the need to share it with you, I don't think that's so hard to understand. I wouldn't be talking about age if I were you though, because you act quite a lot like a stuck up 15 year old with raging hormones, in that case your age is also irrelevant.

    By the way, you should learn about opinion, I tried to explain that everything in my post is subjective, it's not hard to read something that's right in front of you. You should also learn to chill out, I was being civilized and you go all cave-man bullshit on me, this is the internet, I don't care about silly insults, and we're discussing a video game, if you don't like it do something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark Son View Post
    You have some good points but despite the bad things I liked them for the atmosphere and the connections with the lore and I think most bosses were fun, the only one I didn't like so much was trial of the champion because of mounted combat and the fact it had no lore. I agree most of the cataclysm starting dungeons were pretty good, I don't like the ones in MoP so that's another reason why I'm not happy with this change.
    That's absolutely fine, I'm happy that some people at least enjoyed the content, and I'm glad that someone here can exchange opinions civilized, probably a lot more civilized than me too.
    Last edited by MasterOfKnees; 2013-03-23 at 11:09 PM.

  15. #75
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimzum2523 View Post
    You are delusional if you think any content in a video game is mandatory. What matters is if it is fun ( games are supposed to be fun) and if a lot of people are doing it even know they are not having any fun then it is bad design.
    That was my point. Please read that as a response to what was quoted saying that dailies were mandatory and that Blizzard had admitted it. I think you may have misread it a bit. 'Fun' is entirely subjective and I don't really have anything to say about that.
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  16. #76
    Glad for no new dungeons as they really don't have a niche in current prog model. I'd rather them focus on putting patches out faster than a few dungeons that would need their own queue (because of their ilvl)...resulting in players running the same 1-3 dungeons ad nauseam. My opinion.
    "Brevity is...wit"

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by shokter View Post
    Glad for no new dungeons as they really don't have a niche in current prog model. I'd rather them focus on putting patches out faster than a few dungeons that would need their own queue (because of their ilvl)...resulting in players running the same 1-3 dungeons ad nauseam. My opinion.
    They don't really need to make just 2-3 dungeons. Back in BC, they launched with 15 dungeons all ready to go. In Mists, we had 9 I believe, with three of them being rehashed content. If they spent the same resources into making Mists dungeons as they did with BC dungeons, they could easily have 7-8 new ones for us to run.

    The issue with cataclysm, mists, and to a lesser extent Wrath, I feel, is all the rehashed content. Looking back, it really made me appreciate what the team that worked on BC did with WoW. They had 15 dungeons, karazhan, Gruul, Mag, SSC, and TK all ready to go at launch. People weren't bored because they had so many challenging content.
    Last edited by happyzod; 2013-03-23 at 11:23 PM.

  18. #78
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    Looking back, it really made me appreciate what the team that worked on BC did with WoW. They had 15 dungeons, karazhan, Gruul, Mag, SSC, and TK all ready to go at launch. People weren't bored because they had so many challenging content.
    Some of that was likely designed and started well before Vanilla launch. It's hard to say how much of BC was in the pipeline before even Vanilla was available. When you have several years to develop the game, content designers can get well ahead. It's staying ahead that's the trick. Anyway, I don't think there can be too much to do in a game. Especially when there's always stuff you don't care to bother with. Better too much than too little if I had to make a choice.
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  19. #79
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    Some of that was likely designed and started well before Vanilla launch. It's hard to say how much of BC was in the pipeline before even Vanilla was available. When you have several years to develop the game, content designers can get well ahead. It's staying ahead that's the trick. Anyway, I don't think there can be too much to do in a game. Especially when there's always stuff you don't care to bother with. Better too much than too little if I had to make a choice.
    Most of mists was likely designed and planned well ahead of launch. I don't understand what that has to do with anything really. Especially when you consider the fact that in vanilla they had a host of other issues to deal with on the technical side and they didn't have 7-8 years of experience doing this already and they STILL managed to produce more crap for TBC than they did for mists even after taking a 9 month+ break from releasing stuff after DS. If anything given that they've sorted most of the technical problems out with the game and have had YEARS of experience designing this stuff we should be expecting MORE dungeons and raids at launch. Well what we got was less, what we're getting is less, and what we got is gated to hell and back to make sure we don't actually EXHAUST the content we like.

    Their isn't to much to do in mists, their's to little that's rewarding and to much that's gated. That's all.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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