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  1. #1

    Weapon speed for Enhance?

    Im a long time Shaman who has recently returned from a 3 year break and hit 90 just a few days ago. im no running heroics and gearing up for entry level raids but came across a dagger with 1.8 speed and voted to disenchant it...but could I have used it? my current weapons are the Ner'onok razor katar and the regular Claws of Gekkan. this dagger was a heroic boss drop but its speed made me think it was wrong to take like it use to be. so does weapon speed matter anymore?

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Weapon speed does matter. You want to have as slow weapons as possible (basically 2.6).
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  3. #3
    Enhance needs 2 very slow weapons, agility only (or attack power if low level).

    Elemental does not care about weapon speed.

  4. #4
    Same as it's always been since the flametongue weapon fix in early wotlk, you always want slow one handers. Ignore daggers, unless you're somehow able to get your hands on a 1.8 speed dagger (without stealing it from a rogue who needs it of course) that's 30 or so ilvls higher than your current slow one hander, which might give you a slight dps increase. So yeah it's very unlikely you'll ever want to be using anything but 2.6 speed weapons.
    Last edited by Ascendant; 2013-03-23 at 10:35 PM.

  5. #5
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Weapon speed matters as much as it always did, the reason it doesn't get talked about as much any more is that weapon speeds were normalized a while back, and pretty much every weapon type an Enhancement Shaman might want to use is a 2.6 speed. Except daggers. But, this is why daggers are bad for Enhancement.

  6. #6
    Keep in mind that there is a mace in T15 that is 2.4 speed (rather than 2.6) and as a result is complete garbage

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryethe View Post
    Keep in mind that there is a mace in T15 that is 2.4 speed (rather than 2.6) and as a result is complete garbage
    If you're referring to this mace - Jerthud, Graceful Hand of the Savior - then weapon speed doesn't matter since it's for healers/casters. All the enhancement weapons in T15 are 2.6 weapon speed.

    Thanks to Axalicious for the great signature!

  8. #8
    I have a question about enhancement shammys.. I know that they use agility and slow weapons, but after getting the living steel 'reborn' patterns and noticed that there is no agility weapons that my shammy can use.

    So question is, how bad is it to use slow str weapons?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by streetlightout View Post
    If you're referring to this mace - Jerthud, Graceful Hand of the Savior - then weapon speed doesn't matter since it's for healers/casters. All the enhancement weapons in T15 are 2.6 weapon speed.
    Except for this one: Zeeg's Ancient Kegsmasher
    (Does this thing even drop, though? Seems to be ultra-ultra rare. In addition to being useless).

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisKoe View Post
    Except for this one: Zeeg's Ancient Kegsmasher
    (Does this thing even drop, though? Seems to be ultra-ultra rare. In addition to being useless).
    Might be a trash drop? Don't know though, haven't looked it up.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisKoe View Post
    Except for this one: Zeeg's Ancient Kegsmasher
    (Does this thing even drop, though? Seems to be ultra-ultra rare. In addition to being useless).
    I think that was removed as according to wowdb it drops from Council, however the 1h Agi Axe (2.6 speed) is what drops from council on live. However according to wowhead it seems like a random boss drop - guess shared loot?

    Thanks to Axalicious for the great signature!

  12. #12
    There is a ton of random drop loot (multiple weapons) this tier.

    A quick glance at WoWHead shows that this weapon has in fact dropped on live.

  13. #13
    it's dropped, a WW monk in my guild got it from a token, it's a rare drop from bosses in a shared random loot table. so you'll mostly see it on coin drops. Not that it matters since it's crap because of the weap speed.
    Last edited by Barky; 2013-03-28 at 10:31 AM.
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  14. #14
    So just how much crap is Zeeg's really supposed to be? A quick search on these forums revealed nothing more than people complaining about the weapon speed, but absolutely zero supportive data. Has anyone actually tried this weapon out?

    522 Zeeg's dropped last night, and I reluctantly took it, as my current weaps are 502s, with one being partially upgraded to 506.

    AMR indicates that 522 Zeeg's is a relative upgrade, over my 502, by roughly 2500 dps. I'm at work, and don't have time to run a SimC on it.

    The only thing I could find on Totemspot was an initial glance post by Purge, with the caveat that it was only an initial glance, and not definitive: http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthre...ll=1#post83599

    If this weap would be an upgrade, I'll enchant it and use it. But, if the 2.4 speed is really a detriment, then I don't want to find out, after wasting my mats.

  15. #15
    Your attacks are based off weapon damage. Ignore the dps, ignore the speed, and look at the damage the weapon does.
    Zeegs does 7k-13k. If this is more than your 502s, then zeegs is an upgrade.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Swarles View Post
    Your attacks are based off weapon damage. Ignore the dps, ignore the speed, and look at the damage the weapon does.
    Zeegs does 7k-13k. If this is more than your 502s, then zeegs is an upgrade.
    I guess that's sort of what I'm getting at. What you're saying makes sense to me, but the fact of conventional wisdom, for the past (seven?) years, being to not have anything faster than 2.60 speed, combined with a lot of forum posters bashing Zeeg's, due to the speed, makes me question whether anyone has tested it, in-game.

  17. #17
    I used it for a while since it was the first 535 weapon we had drop. Basically, it's better than any <535 weapon, but you'll want to replace it with a 535 2.6 speed weapon if one drops.

  18. #18
    There is about 2k difference between using 2 Zeegs and 2 2.6 522s at 520ish ilvl. That's really nothing if you're already using a 502 and need to upgrade.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    All of these "is X weapon better than Y even if X is faster?" questions can be answered by looking at the weapon damage, if (Top end + Bottom End)/2 is higher on the X than Y, then it's an upgrade for sure.

    For example:
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=81089 463 iLvl 2.6 speed
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=87012 502 iLvl 1.8 speed

    Axe: 6335 avg. damage
    Dagger: 6308 avg. damage

    in terms of pure damage, the dagger wins, but the increased stat gain is:

    +169 Agility
    +145 Haste
    +324 Hit
    -261 Mastery

    Which should make the dagger winner in this case.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    All of these "is X weapon better than Y even if X is faster?" questions can be answered by looking at the weapon damage, if (Top end + Bottom End)/2 is higher on the X than Y, then it's an upgrade for sure.

    For example:
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=81089 463 iLvl 2.6 speed
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=87012 502 iLvl 1.8 speed

    Axe: 6335 avg. damage
    Dagger: 6308 avg. damage

    in terms of pure damage, the dagger wins, but the increased stat gain is:

    +169 Agility
    +145 Haste
    +324 Hit
    -261 Mastery

    Which should make the dagger winner in this case.
    This is not entirely true. When adding attack power to normalized, weapon-based attacks, the type of weapon used determines the multiplier applied to the attack power contribution to weapon damage. One-handed swords, fists, maces, and axes receive a 2.4 multiplier, while daggers only receive a 1.7 multiplier. So even though a dagger might have a higher average damage than an axe/fist/mace, the axe/fist/mace will most certainly win out due to the extra 41% of AP scaling -- unless the dagger is of significantly higher item level than the axe/fist/mace. This is especially true of abilities which give a percentage damage bonus as part of the ability, such as Lava Lash.

    Lava Lash receives the following damage bonuses:
    + 300% - baseline
    + 40% - if using Flametongue Weapon on the off-hand
    + 20-100% - Depending on stacks of Searing Flame

    There's a potential for +440% weapon damage done by Lava Lash. Since the AP contribution is added to the weapon's damage to determine the overall weapon damage before applying ability bonuses, this means that an axe/fist/mace receives an extra 180.4% AP contribution which is very hard to overcome with a dagger.

    Stormstrike works similarly, with a +450% boost to weapon damage. Thus, for Enhancement Shaman, daggers aren't even worth considering unless you're upgrading from something like questing greens to a ToT dagger. Even then it might not be worth it, would have to do some more math on that.

    See Weapon Normalization for more details.
    Last edited by Rabble; 2013-05-30 at 12:57 AM.

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