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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblecrush View Post
    too many actions per minute. just raping your poor keyboard for 5-10 minutes straight
    Lol in wow most dont even reach 60 apm.

  2. #142
    I don't think the classes are too complex. I do think the levelling path and then breaking into the endgame is too complex though.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Yeah, it was so difficult as a warlock in TBC spamming shadow bolt.
    How did you think Arcane Mages felt in 5.1?
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  4. #144
    Herald of the Titans Theodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiL134 View Post
    Want facts?

    Feral dps, all Warlock specs, Survival/BM Hunter, Shadowpriest all have simpler rotations than they did in Cataclysm. I do not play any other class, so I wouldn't know about the rest.
    Tanking has become extremely easier than what it was in Classic/TBC due to changes in threat-generation
    Just, no. Tanking isn't simply holding threat and being hit in the face. Try tanking something like Tortos without using active mitigation for the massive amounts of snapping bites you'll have to have it up for. If you manage to kill bosses without using active mitigation then you are totally being carried by healers, or are doing LFR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffles View Post
    All 3 hunter specs are a bit harder to play because of the new extra buttons hunters got from talents/specs. It's chaos at the start but when you get used to it, it's easier.
    That is one of the major causes for complaints, in my opinion. People expect to get to grips with a class and release its full potential in no time at all, but when a couple of days play goes by and they aren't hitting simcrafted numbers shown on websites, they declare the game to be too hard. It's simply a total lack of determination.
    Last edited by Theodon; 2013-03-24 at 10:14 AM.

  5. #145
    Dreadlord Elapo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmoth12 View Post
    Rotations are the most complicated they have ever been for all classes.
    Lol.

    5 spells + cooldowns isn't what I like to call "complicated". And let's be fair, how many classes have way more than 5 rotational abilities. Of course, to execute them perfectly isn't easy, but rotations are made so you can always keep on improving on them.
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    And 97% of the Internet knows that 99% of statistics are made up on the spot!

  6. #146
    The Patient
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    I'd quit along time ago if things didn't catch up.

    Don't get my wrong, I can talk for hours and days, maybe even weeks about how awesome molten core, bwl, aq and naxx were, and how tbc was super awesome too.
    But it'll only last so long. Frostbolt was the only ability used for dps back then, until you could afford to go fire in late aq/naxx, then it was mostly fireballs with the odd pyro.
    Boss fights were mostly one trick ponies and fairly easy to learn.

    These days there's always room to improve, thing to work on and get better at, you have tresholds to meet and numbers meassure yourself against. The game has simply grown. I doubt many people would've been around if all it was to the class was bolt and ball spams, and just taking in the scenery, that part gets old really fast.

  7. #147
    Bloodsail Admiral rashen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblecrush View Post
    too many actions per minute. just raping your poor keyboard for 5-10 minutes straight
    I'd beg to differ, the APM in WoW is quite low due to the global cooldown.

  8. #148
    I think people are jumping on the OPs words, not the idea/concept they are trying to get across.

    Difficult could mean various things.

    Could just mean tedious and/or becoming less forgiving of mistakes.

    Would you call the overload of trash difficult or tedious (trash can be fun if designed right)? or sometimes the tedious and necessity to be perfect over many continuous hours can become difficult for some?

    Perfect pulls every time. 25 people performing flawlessly. Fights that have you jumping through hoops (sometimes literally) for 10-20 minutes. Priorities/rotations that need precision execution to perform at the top, with a game with variable latency. Fights designed around the assumption you'll have boss mods, even if top end players don't need them; hell, even class buffs/debuffs/priorities/procs nearly needing addons to be at your best. Macros and many, many keybinds.

    None of it is truly difficult ... compared to real life stuff ... but it adds up to a large intertwined set of complexities that is actually against the roots of WoW. It was the simpler, less grindy EverQuest. Now, it is becoming very complex, and very grindy. Some love it, some hate it ... each are right for their own opinion.


    Comes down to, if you are having fun, then great, if not, you unsub. The OP is theorizing that the ones leaving, a decent % is because of the increase in intensity and dedication required to perform even menial tasks.

    I agree challenge should be there. Things shouldn't necessarily be as simple as arcane mages were somewhere in wrath and BC locks; 1-2 button heroes. The fights shouldn't be patchwerk either ... Maybe it is some just getting tired and worn out from the intensity, and need to take a step back, let new blood take over.

    I know I burned myself out on dailies. Probably around the 6 week mark. None of the rares I encountered were hard, though soloing the one in Dread Wastes with all the adds by the water at 89 was both fun and challenging. But I was also tired of the changes to classes, even some for the better. Two of my favorite classes and the specific specs I loved to play were redesigned, one from the healing homogenization in cata, and another, just because the other two specs were getting love, I guess they figured they screw with it. That killed the love for my main ... and my main alt. With that, my love for the game.

    I'm happy others are enjoying all the changes ... but it isn't the complexity that drove me away, it was the narrow paths, all the limitations, restrictions, my freedom of choice to have fun how I want, in the xpac touted for being about choice, was it. Once they switched to LFD and farmable tokens ... I can't go back to these artificial caps. If I want to play the hell out of the game this week, and not play next, then I should be able to farm 10k VP this week if I want. If I want to grind out a single rep in a few days, I should have that choice ... not have a gated, Ogri'la style rep system. If I want to kite a world boss somewhere, like in tanaris, it shouldn't be tethered ... let us create a dynamic environment, even if they don't have the passion to any longer. GMs should be in game, dropping bosses on capitals wiping out people. Don't take away group quests and class quests. Class quests are perfect for those wanting to go deeper into the lore, and gives you more attachment to your toon, especially if done at proper levels. All that stuff gives the game character and personalization.

    The current game isn't bad ... but it has lots its flavor for me ... not because it is hard or complex ... but because it is tedious and simple with other systems over done (like tons of trash) just to make it appear there is more there than it is.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by sandmoth12 View Post
    I am sure I will get flamed and yelled down, but wow has become too complex and that is why it is losing subs. Rotations are the most complicated they have ever been for all classes, there are more utility abilities than ever before, even encounters are are the most complicated they have ever been.

    The beauty of past wow expansions was that they were difficult, but not complicated.
    What? People have been complaining for years that Wow is too simple and dumbed down.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 06:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    I kinda agree. Watching for procs, dots, procs from dots, procs from trinkets, abilities that can/can't be cast on move, while trying to spot graphics of boss's abilities among huge amount of spell animations. It did become too complex.

    Its a single player game of numbers now instead of MMO adventure.
    How on earth does a complex rotation make Wow a single player game? The amount of stupidity in this thread is astounding.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by tratra View Post
    What is really sad about this game is that it has lost its fun times. TBH i still recall days back in vanilla where me and some other guildies that we were playing lan would have a Naxx raid and we would order pizza, eat drink and fool around generally. It was some sort of relaxing and having fun like when u watching a movie for example.
    Nowadays there is no way that you will even BLINK ur eye for a split sec during a HC mode. U need to be aware of everything and be at ur best condition.
    Well back then there was no HC, so if you want the same pizza + relax raiding night with friends, why not just run normal modes ?

    My guild is having a (kinda casual) progression, but it's more work than fun. When we really want to party, we invite *everyone* we know, even the fresh 90 parents with a baby on their knee, and queue the new LFR while chatting on ventrilo and having a drink (LFR is way more cool when 3/4 of the raid are friends ) .
    Last edited by aSynchro; 2013-03-24 at 10:42 AM.

  11. #151
    Epic! Iceleaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evokanu View Post
    I'd beg to differ, the APM in WoW is quite low due to the global cooldown.
    But you have to move too! Little at least! Plus you can get like lets say 500 apm just by spam clicking boss for targetting.

    Only things that were complex was when you had to keep DoTs with 100% uptime BUT at same time you couldnt just refresh them at random times..you had to wait last ticks etc. Like warlocks had to take account haunts travel time, lag and unstable affli's cast, last tick of curse. Thankfully corruption refreshed itself with haunt. With some fights this was bit painful - if you wanted 100% uptime on 2+ targets it was craaazyeh. But damn satisfying.

    Now dots dont really have that so meh.
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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Absolutely agreed with you.

    Ladies....... Get your heads out of your geeky ass, and use the brain in that head for a moment. I hope there is some in there though

    The OP does have a very valid point. You just have to stop looking at the game with your eyes. With the eyes of someone who plays it for some time. Then of course, you probably can't see what he is talking about. But, start counting the buttons you got out nowadays. the key binds, the macros. That adds up.
    And now try to see it with the eyes of a complete new player. Not another geek like you and most of us, because the game cannot survive with us. I am talking about the complete "innocent" casual player that knows nothing about the game at all. For them, the handling of the toons has become too complex.

    The parts where people say WoW has become too easy, I am one of them who say that, are the parts that don't correspond with the character handling.
    Well good thing new players have 90 levels to figure things out. There is a reason why new characters don't start out with all their abilities and talents at lvl 1. Blizzard has made learning how to play the game simpler than ever and the only way for someone to have a difficult time is to be brain dead. New doesn't mean stupid.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 06:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmoth12 View Post
    Everything you just posted is opinion also. You are stating things are easier simply based on your opinion. You are providing no more facts than I am. This is not an thread about facts. It is a thread about game feel and never ending spam abilities, short debuff timers, and proc abilities. You simply can't watch the content anymore.
    An opinion based on facts has more merit than an opinion alone. He backed up his opinion with facts whereas you have yet to do so. I'm sorry but facts have everything to do with this thread whether you like it or not. Just because you have a weak argument with nothing to back it up doesn't mean you can demand that others not bring up facts.

  13. #153
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Easy to learn, hard to master.

    As you can see...anyone can just do..something in a 5 man or LFraid and succeed. Gets harder in normal raids. You need to have mastered your class for hardmodes...and high lv pvp.

    Other than that OP, your claim would have been sufficient without the "and that is why WoW is losing subs" addition. Frankly, there are just too many people who are not Blizzard, who are not game designers, who do not work in the industry, who have no economical traing, yet still think they alone know why WoW loses subs. If you ask them why, it is because of "common sense"...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #154
    I can agree with the OP to a certain extent. I personally find my Muti Rogue the most fun to play because it doesn't have a lot of tedious things going on with it. I've found that I like my Affliction lock the least, not because its hard or even really complex, its just feels tedious and has for a while.

    Healing is one of those things that is probably more complicated, but then again in Vanilla and TBC you had lots of downranking, much more mana management other things going on ( for most specs). It was much more of mind game than a reflex game.

    Tanking is definitely easier, although I think its probably more complex due to the nature of boss fights these days + ablities. Its less tedious but there is more going on at times.

    I tend to think that most specs at this point and time aren't overly complex, however that doesn't mean there aren't some things that are still tedious and not a ton of fun.

  15. #155
    I think the OP has a point tho. I miss the days that you could do this...

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    Let's try and address the topic and write less about about one another's perceived skill levels. Don't be insulting.

    That said, priority systems are undoubtedly more 'complex' (in a way) than strict rotations used to be which occasionally could be dumped into a macro. But I don't believe that the game is overly complicated in that respect. If you've got too much stuff to watch, you might be watching things that you don't really need to.

    If you have more than a couple of dozen keybinds that you are using regularly, that's actually pretty complex. I don't know how true that is any longer. For spriests, MoP is somewhat simpler than previous expansions which some like and many don't. It's all a matter of opinion after all.
    Sorry but considering the topic of the thread is whether the game is too complicated or not, perceived skill lvl has everything to do with it. Bringing it up isn't insulting and shutting down a valid argument because some people choose to be insulting is complete bullshit but sadly very typical of these forums.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 06:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    Considering complexity i think that there indeed are just too many buttons to push. But AFAIK blizzard is going to adjust that even more.
    You don't need to push them all. In fact the game can be played without doing so. Players have the ability to make their game play as complicated as they want which is why the game in its current state is perfectly fine as is.

  17. #157
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    I think this is a good example of what I claimed earlier.

    http://www.icy-veins.com/frost-death...owns-abilities

    On the obvious and easy level, you apply your diseases as a Frost DK, and use certain abilities as runes and runic power is available and a passive ability procs.

    On the more complex part there is point 4. "Mastering your Frost DK".
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    You expected facts in an inherently opinion based post?
    Opinions don't exist in a vacuum so yes it is perfectly fair to expect people who state their opinion to back it up with facts otherwise there is nothing to discuss which is kind of the entire point of a forum.
    Last edited by xanzul; 2013-03-24 at 11:04 AM.

  19. #159
    Stood in the Fire Korbany's Avatar
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    I don't think dps rotations in wow could be considered difficult, they are all fairly easy to learn. They are however boring and tedious, largely due to the stupid amount of ability cool downs in place.

    It simply isn't fun spending a large portion of your time auto attacking because all your abilities are still on cool down. There needs to be a better mix of heavy hitting abilities with a cool down, and spam-able filler attacks so that it feels as if you are actually doing something all of the time. Of course this varies from class to class, but pretty much all classes could do with a rework along with removal of some of the ability bloat.

  20. #160
    The Patient heinevilla's Avatar
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    It's not harder than you make it.

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