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  1. #1

    Elemental....Time for a New Stat Priority?

    So, I've been playing around with My friend Mr. Simcraft, and have thought a lot how to apply my findings to ToT Boss fights, and Im Now Convinced that the whole Haste >Mastery>Crit Priority we all follow is wrong. Here's what I think and why

    Haste (to around 6000) > Crit >>>>Mastery

    Most ToT boss fights have some sort of AoE or cleave component. Now due to the fact that we Have Shamanistic Rage In addition to Thunderstorm for mana, Maintaining Chain Lightning for Cleave is Trivial Now (One Shamaistic Rage during Cleave can give you back a LOT of mana since Chain Lightning is Free).

    The Problem here is that Your Mastery Is completely worthless for Chain Lightning (the Chance is greatly reduced). Your Best Stat for Chain Lightning is Crit.....By a large margin in fact.

    Here are the stat weights I get for 2 Targets with Light Movement for My profile (515 Ilevel)

    Int 4.72
    Crit 2.57
    Haste 1.84
    Mastery 1.28

    As you can see, ANYTIME you Cleave, Crit is worth Twice what mastery is worth

    Lets Add a Target and go to 3 targets

    Int 6.87
    Crit 4.59
    Haste 3.48
    Mastery 1.28

    Crit and Haste Pull even FURTHER ahead of mastery on 3 targets, In fact its not even close at this point!

    Now Lets go to a straight Patchwerk fight and compare.

    Assume the following, Haste loses Value on a pure Patchwerk past 6050, this is due to Lava Burst Occasionally GCD locking. Its still not BAD by any means, but past 6050 Haste is worth as much as Much as the other 2 stats to the Point where there isnt really a difference. If you have 6000 Haste and Mastery or 9000 Haste and 3000 mastery, your dps is going to be within .1-.2% of each other.

    So Anyway This is the DPS and stat priorites I get for the following Reforge

    Haste to 6050 > Mastery > Crit

    126377 DPS

    Int 4.21
    Crit 1.77
    Haste 1.85
    Mastery 1.85

    Now this is a Patchwerk with a Priority of

    Haste to 6050 > Crit > Mastery

    125465 DPS

    Int 4.23
    Crit 1.84
    Haste 1.85
    Mastery 2.09

    Theres Less than a 1% difference in reforging all your mastery into crit on a Patchwerk fight, Yet when you add a Target, crit becomes by far and away your best stat. So to me, the choice is easy, Since theres no real downside to stacking crit on a patchwerk fight, yet a Huge upside on AoE fights, Im stacking crit.

    CAVEAT: I know that once people start sporting the 4 pc Mastery might yet get some more Value, I dont see it overtaking haste in cleave situations though. But The community seems to hate our 4 piece anyway, so maybe its not that big a difference.

    Also, Our 2 piece Should scale with both Crit AND mastery, with haste being a constant, as long as our 2 piece can proc off of Mastery procs

    Furthermore, I am Not sure what The Meta will do to this priority, I suspect not much except devalue haste, but well see when people start getting it

    Feel free to discuss!

  2. #2
    On how many fights you excessively cleave 2 or 3 targets?

    Council and Horridon to an lesser extent, outside of that most situations have more targets or the situation itself doesn't last long enough.

    And i'm not sure why you aim for 6k Haste, 4k Haste suffices to bring you to 15% Haste because of the 5% Haste Support.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  3. #3
    It doesnt matter if you excessively cleave or not, the Point is its not really a single Target DPS loss to go crit after haste as opposed to mastery, while it is a huge DPS gain otherwise, so why Not just go crit?

    Lei Shen? Twins? Dark Animus? All have good cleaving and AoE opportunities

    And BTW the soft Cap on haste is 25% not 20%, I can show you graphs and charts to show you this, but just take my word for it

  4. #4
    Anything is worth a shot when it comes to shamans right now. They are not feeling the love this patch.

  5. #5
    This seems quite legit, you should do and post up some logs to see the results.

  6. #6
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1994&e=2338

    300k on Wind Lord LFR Smashed my old Parse by 10% with the same gear, first kill I almost matched my rank despite being trapped the entire fight

    Im gonna do stone guards later if I get a chance

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post

    Lei Shen?
    There's hardly any Cleave going on in this fight, 90% of this Fight is single target.

    Those other 10% are AoE'ing down those Ball Lightnings and a bit cleave on some additional adds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    Twins?
    You mean Cleave during Dusk? Where Suen has to constantly dragged around and Lu'lin goes immune during Tidal Force?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    Dark Animus?
    Depends on your strat but i never used Cl on Dark Animus as it would only hit useless targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    And BTW the soft Cap on haste is 25% not 20%, I can show you graphs and charts to show you this, but just take my word for it
    Actually the "cap" i was refering to is 15% because then you hit 50% Haste during EM / Bl which causes a 1sec Lvb / Cl Casttime and no additional GCD reduction for instant casts.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-03-24 at 02:52 AM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    There's hardly any Cleave going on in this fight, 90% of this Fight is single target.

    Those other 10% are AoE'ing down those Ball Lightnings and a bit cleave on some additional adds.



    You mean Cleave during Dusk? Where Suen has to constantly dragged around and Lu'lin goes immune during Tidal Force?



    Depends on your strat but i never used Cl on Dark Animus as it would only hit useless targets.



    Actually the "cap" i was refering to is 15% because then you hit 50% Haste during EM / Bl which causes a 1sec Lvb / Cl Casttime and no additional GCD reduction for instant casts.
    1) Cleaving On Dark Animus is a single Target DPS Gain due to more Rolling Thunder Procs, which lets you use Your Earth Shock on cooldown

    2)Cleave Oppurtunity is cleave Opportunity, Remember, No downside to crit, but Only upside

    3)Lei Shen Adds will turn out to be a good amount of your DPS on that fight, even if its short bursts. Sadly, since WOL Hates My Lei Shen logs I cant tell you how much for sure, but it was a lot

    4)With the EM Talent your haste level cap will vary, Im assuming EOTE which Most people take. I have actually simmed This with EM though and the Crit/Mastery results are the same, this is the important part, I dont want to agrue about haste here, Only Crit/Mastery.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Actually the "cap" i was refering to is 15% because then you hit 50% Haste during EM / Bl which causes a 1sec Lvb / Cl Casttime and no additional GCD reduction for instant casts.
    That's 9.89% haste. 1.5/(1.05*1.3) = 1.0989. 9.89% haste to cap during EM/BL. 5% Haste, 30% haste, and 9.89% haste becomes 1.05*1.3*1.0989 = 1.5 or 50% haste.

    Second of all, from the numbers you posted OP it looks like there may be a bug in how mastery is calculated in simc an AoE setting. It makes 0 sense for their to be no change in weight between 2 and 3 targets. It wouldn't be a large change, but there would be SOME change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    I must have missed that somewhere, I thought it had pretty much the same chance as any other spell including the jumps. Oo

    I can be wrong though.
    It has 1/3rd of the chance of your mastery on each bounce regardless of whether or not it's glyped
    Last edited by Gistwiki; 2013-03-24 at 03:35 AM.
    I love arguing! BRING ON THE TROLLS!

    Armory refuses to update even though my transfer's over a month ago (Gistwiki - KT - Indestructable) - http://bit.ly/ScUD0Z
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  10. #10
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    The Problem here is that Your Mastery Is completely worthless for Chain Lightning (the Chance is greatly reduced).
    I must have missed that somewhere, I thought it had pretty much the same chance as any other spell including the jumps. Oo

    I can be wrong though.

    I don't really have much constructive to say though, it's just my off-offspec if I ever get requested to go for it, but I'm always reading these kind of interesting things
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    I must have missed that somewhere, I thought it had pretty much the same chance as any other spell including the jumps. Oo

    I can be wrong though.

    I don't really have much constructive to say though, it's just my off-offspec if I ever get requested to go for it, but I'm always reading these kind of interesting things
    im pretty sure it is like this.

    say you have 30% mastery, if you do not have CL glyphed (only hitting 3 targets), each jump has a 10% chance to trigger another CL.

    if you do have it glyphed, you get 5 jumps, but each jump remains at 10% chance to trigger off mastery, giving you a 50% chance to trigger another CL.


    at least i know this is how it used to work, and im pretty sure it still works this way, if it doesnt work this way please tell me lol.

    while at 3 targets crit demolishes the 2 other stats, once you reach 5 targets it appears the sims tell you that crit and haste become exactly the same.
    Last edited by orderschvank; 2013-03-24 at 05:45 AM.

  12. #12
    The Patient
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    Combining the probability of independent events is a bit more complex than simply adding the probabilities.

    With mastery x (in decimal form) and 5 targets, your chance for at least one mastery proc on a glyphed CL is: 1-(1-x/3)^5

    With mastery of 30%, the result is a ~41% chance for at least one proc; with a mastery of 40%, it's ~51%.

    *****

    The stat weights are all very close together; this graphic Binkenstein posted on the Totemspot 5.2 Elem primer is a good demonstration of this. (This graphic shows that mastery is slightly ahead in the top gear available.)


    Personally, my trinkets determine my reforges more than anything else right now--two haste proc trinkets have pushed me to reforge toward mastery.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kaikoraimi View Post
    Combining the probability of independent events is a bit more complex than simply adding the probabilities.

    With mastery x (in decimal form) and 5 targets, your chance for at least one mastery proc on a glyphed CL is: 1-(1-x/3)^5

    With mastery of 30%, the result is a ~41% chance for at least one proc; with a mastery of 40%, it's ~51%.

    Personally, my trinkets determine my reforges more than anything else right now--two haste proc trinkets have pushed me to reforge toward mastery.
    Did you even read My original Post? Those stat weights you Linked are accurate but ONLY for a Patchwerk fight, and those stat weights dont list chain lightning, only our talents, were not debating Patchwerk, were debating the real world

    The Point i've been trying to make is this, we have all been making stat weight decisions based on what is best During a Patchwerk fight, except the problem with this is that These fights dont really exist anymore, a Lot of fights have adds, Cleaving Oppurtunity and whatnot. For fights like this, ive just showed you the hard numbers, Mastery is by FAR our worst stat, while Crit and haste is King

    Second of all, from the numbers you posted OP it looks like there may be a bug in how mastery is calculated in simc an AoE setting. It makes 0 sense for their to be no change in weight between 2 and 3 targets. It wouldn't be a large change, but there would be SOME change.
    After thinking about this some more, this actually should be correct and not a bug, The reason for this is that when you have 2 targets you are Just subbing out Chain lightning for Lightning bolt to build stacks of rolling thunder, You are still doing your single Target rotation as Normal, which means youre still getting some mastery procs. When you Go to 3 targets you are doing much less single target stuff (I think maybe just instant Lava Burst and Flame shock) which leaves much Less room for Mastery Procs

    Without Having simmed it yet (ill do it right now) I suspect that Indeed when I bump it up to 4 and 5 targets Mastery will grow in Value from 3

    while at 3 targets crit demolishes the 2 other stats, once you reach 5 targets it appears the sims tell you that crit and haste become exactly the same.
    I didn't sim 4 and 5 targets because It was obvious to me that mastery would continue to fall further behind, and due to the fact that there are less True AoE situations in the fights then there are cleaving chances. I had not considered that Haste Might catch up though, without Having simmed it though I suspect you are right.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 11:00 AM ----------

    4 Targets Light Movement

    INT 9.39
    Crit 5.77
    Haste 4.93
    Mastery 1.72

    5 Targets Light Movement

    INT 11.21
    Crit 6.77
    Haste 5.47
    Mastery 1.93

    Gap Continues to widen when you add more and more targets, I dont see haste catching up at any point though. Mastery does In fact scale past 3 targets (but not 2 to 3 targets)

  14. #14
    Keyboard Turner Hangover's Avatar
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    If i get it right the thread starter is not saying mastery is crap.
    He state that when you single target dps mastery will probably still be slightly better. The point is that every time you find yourself hitting your CL bind crit gets way better then mastery.

    I'm actually giving a shot, the stats are so close that (for me) it's worth trying. I really struggle to find encounters when i'm not using CL at all.

    At 3d starter : you run PE/AS or EB/EotE ? Did you simmed how the two talents combinatios affects "your" stats priority ?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    4)With the EM Talent your haste level cap will vary, Im assuming EOTE which Most people take. I have actually simmed This with EM though and the Crit/Mastery results are the same, this is the important part, I dont want to agrue about haste here, Only Crit/Mastery.
    Please enlighten me why Haste has a different "cap" with EM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    1) Cleaving On Dark Animus is a single Target DPS Gain due to more Rolling Thunder Procs, which lets you use Your Earth Shock on cooldown
    Actually you should use Cl whenever you cannot use ES because you lack LS charges, and then it's not a huge Dps Increase because Fulmination has to make the Dps Loss from Cl on Single Target.




    Quote Originally Posted by Gistwiki View Post
    That's 9.89% haste. 1.5/(1.05*1.3) = 1.0989. 9.89% haste to cap during EM/BL. 5% Haste, 30% haste, and 9.89% haste becomes 1.05*1.3*1.0989 = 1.5 or 50% haste.
    Of course i was referring to 15% Haste including 5% Raid Support, technically you only need roughly 10% Haste through Gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gistwiki View Post
    Second of all, from the numbers you posted OP it looks like there may be a bug in how mastery is calculated in simc an AoE setting. It makes 0 sense for their to be no change in weight between 2 and 3 targets. It wouldn't be a large change, but there would be SOME change.
    That is something that left me wondering as well, Mastery statweight should increase with the number of targets.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hangover View Post
    If i get it right the thread starter is not saying mastery is crap.
    He state that when you single target dps mastery will probably still be slightly better. The point is that every time you find yourself hitting your CL bind crit gets way better then mastery.

    I'm actually giving a shot, the stats are so close that (for me) it's worth trying. I really struggle to find encounters when i'm not using CL at all.

    At 3d starter : you run PE/AS or EB/EotE ? Did you simmed how the two talents combinatios affects "your" stats priority ?
    I did in fact sim every tier 6 talent with both EM AND EoTE and the results were the same, hell I even simmed them with unleashed fury too!

  17. #17
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Please enlighten me why Haste has a different "cap" with EM.
    Because you otherwise are bound to get GCD locked with Lava Burst in Ascendence.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    Because you otherwise are bound to get GCD locked with Lava Burst in Ascendence.
    That's not a different Cap, with EotE you have the same effect with Haste Buffs.

    The only difference here is that if you play with EM, Haste loses more value past this cap because you spend more time with a Haste Buff active, the cap itself remains unchanged.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's not a different Cap, with EotE you have the same effect with Haste Buffs.

    The only difference here is that if you play with EM, Haste loses more value past this cap because you spend more time with a Haste Buff active, the cap itself remains unchanged.
    Dont really want to argue about Haste caps in this thread, theres another thread on that, lets try and keep this to debating Crit vs. Mastery, as we can all agree I think to go one or the other after you are set with whatever amount of haste you want

    I'm also curious to see what Endus thinks as well
    Last edited by Gendori; 2013-03-24 at 07:15 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    On how many fights you excessively cleave 2 or 3 targets?

    Council and Horridon to an lesser extent, outside of that most situations have more targets or the situation itself doesn't last long enough.

    And i'm not sure why you aim for 6k Haste, 4k Haste suffices to bring you to 15% Haste because of the 5% Haste Support.
    quite a few
    council, tortos, ji kun, sometimes primordios, and lei shen
    and to haters on lei shen, CL ended up being almost 1/4 of all my damage for the fight and lava beam was 9% (one use). The amount we put out is impressive and overshadows our single target.

    Furthermore

    Totemspot put out a new sim with talent choices over many different types of fights. PE is currently ahead of EB in higher movement fights, and AS is ahead of EM with PE in every type of fight. (remember to use it on CD with LB for maximum effect)

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