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  1. #1

    Question About Fire PvE (5.2) and AoE rotation.

    Frost and Arcane have a rather simple AoE rotation, but i am unable to find a good one for Fire in PvE.

    My frost bomb has a ~10 second cooldown, Flamestrike has a 12 second cooldown, and i am never in melee range to use Dragon Breath (it does 3k damage anyway).
    After the Bomb+Flamestrike, i have absolutely nothing AoE to cast for the next 10 seconds...

    So how is Fire supposed to do reliable sustained AoE damage?

    EDIT:
    Is NT mandatory for Fire AoE?
    What if we pick Fire Bomb or Frost bomb, how does Fire AoE then?
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2013-03-24 at 12:04 AM.

  2. #2
    Field Marshal zandiy's Avatar
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    You should use NT instead and dot everything, unless you have a combustion to spread. Spreading ignite does less dmg than dotting NT so prioritize NT over spreading a good ignite and requires mobs to be stacked aswell + it only spreads to 4 targets. But always maintain NT on every target possible.
    Last edited by zandiy; 2013-03-23 at 09:48 PM.

  3. #3
    The Patient royals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zandiy View Post
    You should use NT instead and dot everything, unless you have a combustion to spread. Spreading ignite does less dmg than dotting NT so prioritize NT over spreading a good ignite and requires mobs to be stacked aswell + it only spreads to 4 targets. But always maintain NT on every target possible.
    This is quite ambiguous and not always true. Is your cleave target going to live for a while? How many targets? Are they spread or are they together?

    There have been a few threads on this and I would refer you both to those. But as a note which neither of you mentioned, glyphed CoC hits really hard now especially with a few grouped targets (Better than Dragons Breath).

    Spreading ignite + Pyro Dot is still consistantly one of the best ways to do efficient aoe dps as fire. If you have 4 targets all spread out that can take a full duration NT then by all means you should be keeping that up, especially since they buffed our bomb damage. But with say.... 15 targets that wont live very long, Flame strike, CoC + Arcane explosion will do more than NT dotting everything.

    Our aoe is more situational. What if you have a good combust you have you can spread to a bunch of targets, then spread again when IB comes off CD? Thats even better if Combust is glyphed.

    TLDR: Dot Everything isn't the cut and dry answer
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  4. #4
    Field Marshal zandiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by royals View Post
    This is quite ambiguous and not always true. Is your cleave target going to live for a while? How many targets? Are they spread or are they together?

    There have been a few threads on this and I would refer you both to those. But as a note which neither of you mentioned, glyphed CoC hits really hard now especially with a few grouped targets (Better than Dragons Breath).

    Spreading ignite + Pyro Dot is still consistantly one of the best ways to do efficient aoe dps as fire. If you have 4 targets all spread out that can take a full duration NT then by all means you should be keeping that up, especially since they buffed our bomb damage. But with say.... 15 targets that wont live very long, Flame strike, CoC + Arcane explosion will do more than NT dotting everything.

    Our aoe is more situational. What if you have a good combust you have you can spread to a bunch of targets, then spread again when IB comes off CD? Thats even better if Combust is glyphed.

    TLDR: Dot Everything isn't the cut and dry answer
    I thought it was pretty obvious to not dot a target up which is low on hp but still, anything with a decent healthpool should be dotted up. The ramp up time for spreading ignite/pyroblast debuff on a new target is something you should put after NT, dot NT before spreading a shitty ignite. Everything is situational ofc. But i'm pretty sure any ignite below half of combustion treshold is worse than spreading NT. Sure if you already have a decent ignite, spread it and then start dotting NT.

  5. #5
    Is NT mandatory for Fire AoE?

    I mean what if we pick Fire Bomb or Frost bomb?

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by royals View Post
    But with say.... 15 targets
    In this instance Frost Bomb would be the way to go. Frost Bomb-Flamestrike combo.

  7. #7
    The Patient royals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zandiy View Post
    I thought it was pretty obvious to not dot a target up which is low on hp but still, anything with a decent healthpool should be dotted up. The ramp up time for spreading ignite/pyroblast debuff on a new target is something you should put after NT, dot NT before spreading a shitty ignite. Everything is situational ofc. But i'm pretty sure any ignite below half of combustion treshold is worse than spreading NT. Sure if you already have a decent ignite, spread it and then start dotting NT.
    Again though, we need to figure out what kind of AoE were talking about, Burst aoe like on Oondasta adds? nothing much lives long enough in my raid for NT dotting, the cleave is better for me. But on Council, I try and keep all 4 adds w/ NT(LvB works really good too) all the time I totally agree with you.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 05:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    In this instance Frost Bomb would be the way to go. Frost Bomb-Flamestrike combo.
    Again I agree, but if were talking raiding, how often are there 15 adds, if its 1x per fight, probably wont be using Frost bomb. This is why bliz gave us the ability to reglyph/respec between fights. We don't have a set aoe rotation is basically all I've been trying to say in here. It is well put in the Fire mage guide stickied on this forum and others on when each bomb, flamestrike, arcane explosion etc is a better solution. It is more involved than some would think.

    I think were all agreeing on the answer and saying it different ways.
    Last edited by royals; 2013-03-24 at 12:28 AM. Reason: Added LvB
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  8. #8
    I figured it wasn't really relevant to create a new thread so here goes.

    I got my first taste of Ji-Kun our last raid night (doing Heroic progression so we need 2 flying groups) and I was wondering the best way to be somewhat useful on the adds.

    I've basically resorted to Glyphing CoC, using that on CD along with NT'ing all the adds and spamming scorch/Pyro! when availiable along with IB to try and get ignite on each target - Am I right in doing this? - I'd rather ask and get some experienced answers than wonder. I've also un-glyphed Combustion and use it when appropriate (Being able to get at least 7+ seconds uptime on it.

    We also have a rogue sitting on the boss fulltime, I've been tempted to ask for us to swap as he can destroy adds alot faster than I can.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Rinoa's Avatar
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    If add DPS is a problem, unglyph Combustion and spread that around on the add platform with bombs on all target. If boss DPS is more relevant, just re-glyph Combustion and just spread the Pyroblast DoT as well as bombs around on the lower platforms while cleaving.

  10. #10
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Frost and Arcane have a rather simple AoE rotation, but i am unable to find a good one for Fire in PvE.

    My frost bomb has a ~10 second cooldown, Flamestrike has a 12 second cooldown, and i am never in melee range to use Dragon Breath (it does 3k damage anyway).
    After the Bomb+Flamestrike, i have absolutely nothing AoE to cast for the next 10 seconds...

    So how is Fire supposed to do reliable sustained AoE damage?

    EDIT:
    Is NT mandatory for Fire AoE?
    What if we pick Fire Bomb or Frost bomb, how does Fire AoE then?
    get the mage bomb(s) up;
    use flamestrike and glyphed cone of cold on cooldown;
    spread pryoblast/ignite dots via inferno blast (if there aren't any active dots to spread, use an inferno blast to force a heating up proc, use all aoe abilities until inferno blast is off cooldown available again to force a hot streak);
    arcane explosion has a larger radius than blizzard, 10 (+5 if glyphed) yards opposed to 8 yards, if you can be in melee range use it rather than blizzard.
    typically i would not use dragon's breathe at all unless there were about a dozen mobs present.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 12:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Utsegi View Post
    I figured it wasn't really relevant to create a new thread so here goes.

    I got my first taste of Ji-Kun our last raid night (doing Heroic progression so we need 2 flying groups) and I was wondering the best way to be somewhat useful on the adds.

    I've basically resorted to Glyphing CoC, using that on CD along with NT'ing all the adds and spamming scorch/Pyro! when availiable along with IB to try and get ignite on each target - Am I right in doing this? - I'd rather ask and get some experienced answers than wonder. I've also un-glyphed Combustion and use it when appropriate (Being able to get at least 7+ seconds uptime on it.

    We also have a rogue sitting on the boss fulltime, I've been tempted to ask for us to swap as he can destroy adds alot faster than I can.
    i haven't worked it out yet, but it is my belief that living bomb is better suited for eggs seeing as 5 targets are bunched together. and they typically don't live that long on normal mode, so having the explosion go off when they die is more beneficial than a partial NT, but perhaps in heroic difficulty it is a different story.

  11. #11
    Pit Lord gutnbrg's Avatar
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    fire mage aie is garbage and has been since cata, we used to be #1 except for warlocks in tbc when they would just spam soc on all mobs...i dont get why blizzard limited LB to only 3 targets but i hate them for it...

  12. #12
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutnbrg View Post
    fire mage aie is garbage and has been since cata, we used to be #1 except for warlocks in tbc when they would just spam soc on all mobs...i dont get why blizzard limited LB to only 3 targets but i hate them for it...
    mages had some of the strongest aoe in the game during cata when combustion didn't have a target cap.

  13. #13
    Combustion without a target cap was wonderful but also incredibly overpowered and impossible to justify keeping

  14. #14
    Blademaster Wobe's Avatar
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    At the moment the most effective way to AoE as a Fire Mage is to apply Nether Tempest to as many targets as possible if they will live for the duration of the NT, cast Flamestrike, and then use Arcane Explosion if you're able to get into melee range or Blizzard if you're not. Other small tricks would be to glyph Cone of Cold and weave that into a Arcane Explosion spam if you're able to be in melee range. Another thing to make sure your doing is spreading your dots from your main target, even though you may not be combusting and Living Bomb doesn't spread anymore, it's still useful to get those other dots applied to as many targets as possible, just from the use of 1 GCD(Inferno Blast/Glyphed).

    EDIT - For multiple targets 3+ that are all grouped together I like to take Living Bomb over Nether Tempest if the targets tend to die before the max duration of Nether Tempest. The reason for this is you will still get the Living Bomb explosion when the target dies, even if the bomb didn't go it's full duration. Also, AoE as fire takes a ton of GCD's to be effective. You have 3 bombs, flamestrike, cone of cold, AE spam. So the reduced GCD on Living Bomb along with not having to spend your time dotting the entire army of adds you may have in front of you is very helpful, Your able to dot 3 adds and get right into the AoE rotation.


    "Combustion without a target cap was wonderful but also incredibly overpowered and impossible to justify keeping"

    While this may be true, it gave Mages our niche. Yes, we're able to spike insanely high on some encounters, but you have to keep in mind we are a class that has mediocre survivability along with 0 raid utility. We should have areas like this where we excel greatly to make our class viable to bring over say a Shadow Priest. Granted the unlimited target cap may have been slightly ridiculous, but taking it down to 4 is too low. I think 7-9 is a good number to cap our combustion spread at. Here's to hoping mages are given either A) a decent buff in damage to put us back at the top of the meters or B) some type of Raid utility (see my post in 5.3 Mage thread). If we are going to have 0 raid utility and mediocre survivability then yes, we should be significantly ahead on damage like we have been in the past, it's the only way to justify bringing a Mage over any other caster class which gives some sort of raid utility.
    Last edited by Wobe; 2013-03-24 at 03:11 PM.

  15. #15
    If anyone asks you to justify bringing a mage just link them to World of Logs
    There are plenty of mages still ranking in the top 10 of DPS on a significant portion of ToT encounters, some classes barely appear at all.
    It's hardly an objective measuring tool but it's enough for people who say "mages bring nothing to raids!!"

    Could we be better? Yeah
    Are we suffering to the extent that there is any chance mages are going to be wholescale dropped from groups?

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha (no)
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-03-24 at 08:10 PM.

  16. #16
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NmezusBL View Post
    A) a decent buff in damage to put us back at the top of the meters or B) some type of Raid utility (see my post in 5.3 Mage thread). If we are going to have 0 raid utility and mediocre survivability then yes, we should be significantly ahead on damage like we have been in the past, it's the only way to justify bringing a Mage over any other caster class which gives some sort of raid utility.
    A) mage damage is quite competitive.
    B) between Ice Block, Greater Invisibility, and Temporal Shield/Ice Barrier, i cannot see how you can say we have mediocre survivability. we have some of the best defensives cooldowns out of all the caster classes. 0 raid utility? really 0? heroic will of the emperor would like to speak with you.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    If anyone asks you to justify bringing a mage just link them to World of Logs
    There are plenty of mages still ranking in the top 10 of DPS on a significant portion of ToT encounters, some classes barely appear at all.
    It's hardly an objective measuring tool but it's enough for people who say "mages bring nothing to raids!!"

    Could we be better? Yeah
    Are we suffering to the extent that there is any chance mages are going to be wholescale dropped from groups?

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha (no)
    Those magi that are ranking so high are A) Because the whole raid is allowing them to rank (e.g. letting them spread combustion and other dots that would otherwise not been close enough to do so or other people not killing those adds so the rankers can have greater uptime on them) and B) They are the ones getting extremely lucky with RNG, and a mage with good RNG is stupidly good.

    Honestly, I wonder how people don't see that and keep using the "lol magi are ranking so they're so good" argument. (Not talking about you Imnick )

  18. #18
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azlarn View Post
    They are the ones getting extremely lucky with RNG
    isn't that really the case for all classes? top parses have good or "lucky" rng.

  19. #19
    Just by way of example, watch Method's H-Iron Qon kill. Both Fire Mages are on top the entire fight. I'm assuming Method is not "letting them rank," and—save a bit at the end—the fight is almost exclusively single-target.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by elpadrino293 View Post
    isn't that really the case for all classes? top parses have good or "lucky" rng.
    It is, but with Fire magi everything is way more inflated with such good RNG. The difference between a fire mage's damage from one try of an encounter to another can be so huge even though the player's skill is still the same. My point was just because some fire magi got so lucky to rank so highly, it's not a reason to say that magi are strong because the average dps is what should be seen, not the 2 extremes.

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