Congratz Blizzard on the Tier

[Deleted]

I'm not loving this raid.
We raid 10 man. Cleared everything on normal last tier and a couple of heroics. We managed to kill horridon last week and this one has been a wipefest just like first week. One of our dps wants to quit the game and honestly I feel like i'm back at burning crusade when raiding felt like a 2nd job. We don'T want to raid heroics. There's no middle ground between LFR and normal dificulty and that sucks for me at least.

[Mad_Murdock]

This is why we have multiple difficulty settings.

Some of us just want to see the bosses in lfr, some of us want to raid normals with an organised group, and some of us want to push our performance to the limit in heroics.

But we're talking about Guilds and them being told, don't expect to finish this tier when it's current. Prior to 5.2 and the 10% nerfs, the number of Normal mode sha kills was 31% That's basically 70% of the raiding community not finishing the tier when it was current and I believe it would not go over very well, if Blizzard came out and said "That's how it is going to be from now on. 70% of you won't be able to complete a tier when it's current, else we're just going to make it harder until we get those numbers"

For the record, I'm not completely oppose to it, and I know many here would love for Blizzard to shed 70% of it's subscriber base because they are all bads and noobs, I just don't think it's going to work out that way based on what happened in Cata

[Deleted]

ITT: Good players love the raid because it actually is a fun, engaging, challenging, unique raid tier. Bad players hate it because they suck. More news at 11.

I don't hate it because I Suck. I hate that if I want to down content I'll have to stop playing with people i like because they aren't that great.

[mightyquinn]

I don't hate it because I Suck. I hate that if I want to down content I'll have to stop playing with people i like because they aren't that great.

thats what lebron said too when he left cleveland

[Totaltotemic]

Everyone that thinks that ToT is "too hard" is attributing the loot design's problems to the actual raid itself. I guarantee you that guilds would be steamrolling normal Lei Shen on the first week if normal ToT wasn't 26 ilvls higher than normal HoF and ToES. Normal ToT wasn't balanced around 16/16 normal T14 guilds, it was balanced for ones that are/were 8/16 or more. Guilds that destroy Heroic Garalon a minute and a half before enrage have issues with the Tortos soft enrage of "omg so many turtles stahp" or Iron Qon's 12 minute enrage. This isn't like previous tiers which meant that being full clear normal modes meant that you were ready to instantly go halfway through the next tier on normal, they expect you to kill heroic bosses from the previous tier this time.

[Deleted]

So much hate for a perfectly tuned raid (most bosses on normal should have been more difficult, too tuned for casuals, yet they still can't kill most of it).

The content isn't that hard, casuals just can't play and that's where the issue lies. Put some effort into your character and play it as you should, read up on the raid and bosses and lead your team. The first 11 bosses are all about execution and not about silly dps or hps requirements. In terms of normals, most t14 normals were more annoying for pugs than the current. ToT requires somewhat gear though, you can't expect to go in as 480 and oneshot everything, that won't happen untill you reach +- 500 ilvl.

All in all, it's my favorite raid so far, the only thing I don't like is the twins, they look too cartoony, like almost as they were cut out of carton.

[Deleted]

thats what lebron said too when he left cleveland

I don't know who lebron is. My point is that some of those bosses require perfect execution from everybody in the raid very early in the tier and for our normal mode only laidback guild that's not possible.

[Terahertz]

If by "best raid" you mean "too hard for pretty much everyone to finish this tier" then yep.

Honestly, deal with it.

If something is hard, you simply practise, and keep going on until you finish it. If you quit, then you're a quitter. And quitters don't, and SHOULDN'T achieve anything.

[Tekkommo]

Not the best tier, but it is a good instance from my 1/12 hc experience.

With the way some guilds go at it these days, it's no surprise they clear content in 1 or 2 weeks. Would be cool if Lei Shen survived this reset, but that wouldn't make this tier any worse or better. If you play the game normally, or even hardcore for a normal person (job etc.) it will be a while before you complete this instance.

My main gripe with this tier is that it's so linear, I like different paths. In the end it's not a big deal, but it matters. I was also hoping from more chat from the bosses when you enter their room, if I remember correctly the Twins said nout, they should of been taunting us when we entered.

[Shiira]

But we're talking about Guilds and them being told, don't expect to finish this tier when it's current.

Why should this have to be a problem?

Until wrath guilds would finish one tier before moving on to the next one. Catchup mechanisms that allowed players to skip stuff were added, but if they make the decision to not see content that's their own choice.

Blizzard nerf content after it is no longer current, and give players access to more gear from valor to make old content more accessible. Anyone who wants to see it has options for doing so. If they're skipping stuff they didn't finish to move to the next tier as soon as it becomes available they aren't really raiding to see content, they're raiding for gear. Which is fine, but anyone who does this doesn't get to use not seeing content as an argument.

[Deleted]

I love this tier, Durumu HC 25 has got to be one of the best bosses I've ever done and I can't wait for Lei Shen.

[jsz]

Normal ToT isn't balanced around the idea that most of the raiders cleared 10+/16H last tier. It's probably balanced around having cleared at mimumum 16/16N and you valor capped often enough to double upgrade at least some of your gear. And the fact that a lot of trinkets drop off of early bosses and the random loot of any boss is weapons this time around, if your raid team isn't that strong or that geared you can spend a few weeks on the first couple bosses and get a wide array of loot.

[Unknown12345]

I must admit I agree with you. While I probably don't think its the best idea (I'm not that into Panda lore so I prefer people like Lich King, Vashj, Kael) I agree the content itself it terms of an experience is probably as close to perfect as you can get. There are bosses that will make you think, there are bosses that might take a night or two to perfect your strat and down. I like that. I like the feeling of downing something and saying "Man that was a great effort all round by the group".

I know there are going to be a lot of people moaning about bosses 2 and 3 but that's what LFR is there for. So people can see all the content. And if in a few weeks when you have upgraded your gear to the LFR epics, maybe the boss mechanics won't be so bad. If you are still struggling after that, then you need to look at your strat.

---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 12:30 AM ----------

I love this tier, Durumu HC 25 has got to be one of the best bosses I've ever done and I can't wait for Lei Shen.

We are just about to start Durumu but I can imagine it being epic.

[Maxweii]

I don't hate it because I Suck. I hate that if I want to down content I'll have to stop playing with people i like because they aren't that great.

I just had to switch guild partially for that, and I can say there are great people out there who know how to play. Yeah testing new waters is always kinda iffy, but I am very happy with the switch and im keeping in touch with those I would talk to before.

Also about the raid I can say I really enjoy it. The fights are fun with a lot of variance between them, there is plenty of different items to look through and get. Also the actual difficulty is nice, I don't like roflstomping a whole tier, I wana fight for my kills.

[Unknown12345]

I'm not loving this raid.
We raid 10 man. Cleared everything on normal last tier and a couple of heroics. We managed to kill horridon last week and this one has been a wipefest just like first week. One of our dps wants to quit the game and honestly I feel like i'm back at burning crusade when raiding felt like a 2nd job. We don'T want to raid heroics. There's no middle ground between LFR and normal dificulty and that sucks for me at least.

Tier 14? By the sounds of it if you are really struggling on nerfed Horridon then you won't have cleared all that content either. Maybe your guild should be back there attempting to clear that, getting the gear, with valor getting a couple of pieces of 522, LFR provides 502, and then you'll have a much better chance in the fight. If you are still struggling then maybe your guild needs to take on board that with raiding you can't just close your eyes, hit the buttons and bosses will fall over. You have to have some understanding on how to play your class, you have to have some understanding on fight mechanics, this means have the right addons, ideas on rotations and have watched boss strats. If your guild can't be arsed doing this then maybe raiding isn't for them?

[Screwtape]

thats what lebron said too when he left cleveland

Oh god, I love it.

[Unknown12345]

So much hate for a perfectly tuned raid (most bosses on normal should have been more difficult, too tuned for casuals, yet they still can't kill most of it).

The content isn't that hard, casuals just can't play and that's where the issue lies. Put some effort into your character and play it as you should, read up on the raid and bosses and lead your team. The first 11 bosses are all about execution and not about silly dps or hps requirements. In terms of normals, most t14 normals were more annoying for pugs than the current. ToT requires somewhat gear though, you can't expect to go in as 480 and oneshot everything, that won't happen untill you reach +- 500 ilvl.

All in all, it's my favorite raid so far, the only thing I don't like is the twins, they look too cartoony, like almost as they were cut out of carton.

Yes but the problem is that all this QQ, has a history of being noticed by Blizzard. We have already had nerfs to 3 early bosses in the instance so casuals can get through them in their LFR gear, what's next?

[Soulstrike]

Everyone that thinks that ToT is "too hard" is attributing the loot design's problems to the actual raid itself. I guarantee you that guilds would be steamrolling normal Lei Shen on the first week if normal ToT wasn't 26 ilvls higher than normal HoF and ToES. Normal ToT wasn't balanced around 16/16 normal T14 guilds, it was balanced for ones that are/were 8/16 or more. Guilds that destroy Heroic Garalon a minute and a half before enrage have issues with the Tortos soft enrage of "omg so many turtles stahp" or Iron Qon's 12 minute enrage. This isn't like previous tiers which meant that being full clear normal modes meant that you were ready to instantly go halfway through the next tier on normal, they expect you to kill heroic bosses from the previous tier this time.

i agree with this, i mean it was a very silly for blizz to make tier gap of 26ilvl :/ i know they had ilvl upgrade with vp but that became nulll if you couldnt get H hof/tes in first few weeks then had to upgrade normal piece (which gets replaced with heroic piece then leaves them unupgraded)

same thing will happen for t15 TF2/2 upgrade +13ilvl will be tier 16 normal ilvl drop loot so if you get unlucky with TF heroic items you will be about 13-21 ilvl differentfor heroic and 26-34ilvl difference for normal depending if you have item upgraded or not

@OP yea im really liking this tier so far very challenging and fun ....so far :P inb4 500+wipes for lei shen

[Deja Thoris]

Difficulty doesn't define the quality of a tier.

If tier 16 has a first boss on normal thats completey unkillable will that make it unsurpassable in awesomeness?

I prefer to measure tiers in the quality / fun of the fights, mechanics, art, the protagonists and so on. In that department the tier is ok, doesn't stand out for me though.

[Deleted]

I don't know who lebron is. My point is that some of those bosses require perfect execution from everybody in the raid very early in the tier and for our normal mode only laidback guild that's not possible.

To be honest, if your raid team is not good enough to clear the raid, then it shouldn't. It's perfectly fine.