MOP, To Little or to Much

[Trassk]

After reading the wowinsider post linked to Andy Gavin's (the co-creator of Crash Bandicoot and Jak & Daxter) giving his opinion of each wow expansion and his thoughts on it, which I found a very good read being from the perspective of another game designer, it had me thinking about the current issues with wow's current expansion.

I think, the best way to break down mists, well I do love this expansion don't get me wrong, the design, the story, the way certain things felt changed for the better (unlike cataclysm), there are still rogue elements in mists that makes it that bad part of any meal you wish you could avoid but can't.

After it was announced recently that there will be no more dungeons introduced into mists of pandaria, and yet they outright said there will be more and more dailies, I think this was when it became obvious blizzard was turning a blind eye at what people have been saying for months now. Its an imbalance, people have gotten rigidly bored of doing dailies quests, just about everything you do outside of raiding involved dailies quests, and people have been speaking out against it.

So, well we will have more daily quests coming in the next major patches, and scenarions, which blizzard seems to think went over so well they can now replace dungeons, they have decided to just veto making anymore dungeons in the expansion as a result. More and more dailies, more scenarions, and no more dungeons, making mists the expansion with the least number of dungeons.

Now to me, this is putting more weights into one side of the scales and not enough in the other side, I personally found scenarios, well interesting first time around, got kinda boring after doing them several times. And the number of dailies in mists, nothing can be done without doing like 60-70 dailies each day.

Now, going back to the days of TBC and wrath, what I often found was having a balace of dungeons, dailies and whatever else made things feel far less monotonous, because it broke up your routine. You could do a few dungeons and try to get some gear from that, or do some dailies to purchase gear later on. And this worked well, even in cataclysm, with the release of the 3 added dungeons at the end or the 3 added dungeons in wrath at the end.

Now your probably gonna say 'but we will have scenarios in the follow patches', they worked for a few tries but after a while people will get really bored of running them. And without any new dungeons and tons more daily quests, this routine people have grown to dislike in mists will become even more of a drag for them to keep up to. At least if they had some new dungeons fomr gear upgrades to allow you to get into the current content, like it has done in wrath and cata, it gives something else to work towards.

Honestly, I like dungeons, just like pvpers like arena and BGs. If they didn't release new arena or bg setups, there would be fur flying for that. So why would there be this imbalance of having so much more one one thing, and nothing of the other?

[MoanaLisa]

People get bored of running dungeons too. It's not just scenarios. I disagree with you completely on dailies. You don't have to do any of them to have a successful and viable character at end game.

You didn't mention the work involved with creating art assets for dungeons and raids. The work to do this for new dungeons is high and will come at the expense of raids. The work to do the art for scenarios is practically nothing as they so far have used existing art.

There are lots of threads running now about scenarios given the news about the addition of heroic versions. Read through them. It's not like everyone thinks they are terrible. Not having to queue for half an hour makes a practical difference to people.

Anyway the trade between scenarios and dungeons is more about the cost in time and effort for the art and making bigger and better raids.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Bliz came into MoP saying they heard our complaints about lack of things to do in Cata. Yes they heard our complaints, but they didn't understand our complaints.

They essentially removed heroics and replaced it with mandatory LFR and more dailies than you can possibly do (3 required factions, 2 optional).

What we wanted was more replay value, not just more to do. We liked heroics, we didn't want them to go away. We like LFR, but we didn't want it mandated.

We wanted more to do, not more we HAD to do.

[Glorious Leader]

Bliz came into MoP saying they heard our complaints about lack of things to do in Cata. Yes they heard our complaints, but they didn't understand our complaints.

They essentially removed heroics and replaced it with mandatory LFR and more dailies than you can possibly do (3 required factions, 2 optional).

What we wanted was more replay value, not just more to do. We liked heroics, we didn't want them to go away. We like LFR, but we didn't want it mandated.

We wanted more to do, not more we HAD to do.

Like I tweeted ghostcrawler they had the data but their analysis and conclusions from the data was essentially faulty. He was a scientist for all those years so I presume he knows how to do data analysis but even veterans make mistakes.

---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 05:40 PM ----------

People get bored of running dungeons too. It's not just scenarios. I disagree with you completely on dailies. You don't have to do any of them to have a successful and viable character at end game.

You didn't mention the work involved with creating art assets for dungeons and raids. The work to do this for new dungeons is high and will come at the expense of raids. The work to do the art for scenarios is practically nothing as they so far have used existing art.

There are lots of threads running now about scenarios given the news about the addition of heroic versions. Read through them. It's not like everyone thinks they are terrible. Not having to queue for half an hour makes a practical difference to people.

Anyway the trade between scenarios and dungeons is more about the cost in time and effort for the art and making bigger and better raids.

To be perfectly blunt as a paying customer it's not my concern how they do it. If it takes them hiring more people than do that. I don't expect dungeons every 2 months but by the same token no more dungeons for the rest of MoP and only 9 dungeons at launch is paltry.

It is really only an illusion that they've gave us more. What they did was gate us more.

[MoanaLisa]

What we wanted was more replay value, not just more to do. We liked heroics, we didn't want them to go away.

It's a fact for most people that repeating any content more than half a dozen times makes it boring. That includes heroics.

[Al Gorefiend]

I fail to see how you can have "too much" in an MMO. The first M needs to hold its merit. I do agree that dungeons are getting extremely stale and dusty right now, but they offer little reward to me, so I don't do them. Scenarios I find to be quite exciting.

[Glorious Leader]

It's a fact for most people that repeating any content more than half a dozen times makes it boring. That includes heroics.

And now they'v got the opportunity to repeat the same 9 for the rest of the expansion. Or repeat daily the same daily quests on multiple toons. That douche bag panda keeps getting caught in the cage and at some point I'm just going to leave him there and potentially the game with it.

[Deleted]

People get bored of running dungeons too. It's not just scenarios. I disagree with you completely on dailies. You don't have to do any of them to have a successful and viable character at end game.

You can keep repeating that to the end of days, it doesn't change that even Blizzard by now acknowledged it and tried to do better in 5.2.

You didn't mention the work involved with creating art assets for dungeons and raids. The work to do this for new dungeons is high and will come at the expense of raids. The work to do the art for scenarios is practically nothing as they so far have used existing art.

You're assuming it's the same two groups working on each, you're also assuming Blizzard doesn't have enough resources to do both without slipping in quality. We know for sure your second assumption is wrong.

There are lots of threads running now about scenarios given the news about the addition of heroic versions. Read through them. It's not like everyone thinks they are terrible. Not having to queue for half an hour makes a practical difference to people.

They are terrible, very terrible. They can't feature complex dynamics, they can't feature anything that makes a healer or tank mandatory, they are in effect just go over there and kill 20 mobs wrapped in an instance that is some kind of demi dungeon just far less enjoyable.

Anyway the trade between scenarios and dungeons is more about the cost in time and effort for the art and making bigger and better raids.

We had good raids before like Ulduar and back then they actually kept introducing new dungeons. Your argument is faulty. What you're doing is trying to invoke here is a false dilemma "If you want good raids you can't have dungeons because developers would have to spend time on them.". That simply isn't going to fly, this whole issue isn't black and white and nowhere near as simple as you describe it.

[Peso]

Blizzard said themselves they have been working on 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 before Mists of Pandaria even shipped. What people ask for today will be in the next expansion, what people ask for in the next expansion will be in the one after that and so forth.

[Deleted]

I do 100% agree that the dailies where to "mandatory" in 5.0, they made good steps in 5.1 and 5.2 the dailies are in no way mandatory, you should only do them if you want to.

I really love having a variety of stuff to do outside of raiding with my guild, and I think MoP gives me this in spades.

In 4.3 I did raiding with my guild and the same 3 5 mans over and over again for 10 months.

In 5.2 I do raiding, scenerios, challange modes, dailies, 9 5 mans, rare hunting, mini world bosses (summons) etc etc.

If my choice is...

4.3 - 3 Heroics, 8 Boss Raid & 1 Tol Barad Boss for 10 months.

Or

4.2 - 7 Boss Raid (no LFR), 1 Tol Barad Boss & 1 Adapted Questing Zone (Isle of Thunder >>>> Molten Front IMO as well) for 6 months.

Or

5.2 - Scenarios, 13 Boss Raid and Entire New Questing Zone (done very well imo), 2 World Bosses for (hopefully) 6 months, with 5.3 in say 2 months time.

I will go with the later I am afraid.

Of course would I like new 5 mans as well, I 100% would love them (as long as they do not rain epics) but we can't have everything we want right? (where will it stop?).

[Trassk]

Blizzard said themselves they have been working on 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 before Mists of Pandaria even shipped. What people ask for today will be in the next expansion, what people ask for in the next expansion will be in the one after that and so forth.

I can understand it takes a while to develop something, such as now, they were most likely preparing the next expansion and how that endgame system will work out, based purely on responses they are getting now.

And well they did improve the system somewhat in mists, I just feel they made things very unbalanced in terms of us getting to much of one thing and to little or another. In tbh, for someone who wasn't in a heavy raiding guild, I never felt like there wasn't enough to do, same with wrath. And well mists certainly give us more then enough to do unlike cata, it just.. gives to much of the same thing and not enough variety.

[Deleted]

We had good raids before like Ulduar and back then they actually kept introducing new dungeons. Your argument is faulty. What you're doing is trying to invoke here is a false dilemma "If you want good raids you can't have dungeons because developers would have to spend time on them.". That simply isn't going to fly, this whole issue isn't black and white and nowhere near as simple as you describe it.

Your argument is faulty as well.

Ulduar was preceded by Naxx 80 and followed by ToC (most likley the most dispised raid in the history of WoW).

I don't think that really compares to what we have had with T14 and 15 imo.

[SherbertLand]

You can keep repeating that to the end of days, it doesn't change that even Blizzard by now acknowledged it and tried to do better in 5.2.

You're assuming it's the same two groups working on each, you're also assuming Blizzard doesn't have enough resources to do both without slipping in quality. We know for sure your second assumption is wrong.

They are terrible, very terrible. They can't feature complex dynamics, they can't feature anything that makes a healer or tank mandatory, they are in effect just go over there and kill 20 mobs wrapped in an instance that is some kind of demi dungeon just far less enjoyable.

We had good raids before like Ulduar and back then they actually kept introducing new dungeons. Your argument is faulty. What you're doing is trying to invoke here is a false dilemma "If you want good raids you can't have dungeons because developers would have to spend time on them.". That simply isn't going to fly, this whole issue isn't black and white and nowhere near as simple as you describe it.

Do you really think they have a dungeon team just sitting around waiting to be told to make dungeons?

Yes, they have teams for each, but nobody specials in 5 man dungeon making. The people that would be working on those dungeons are still working on other things.

The only reason you even want more dungeons is because you're bored of the current ones. That's an example as to why there shouldn't be anymore. You guys get bored too fast and they don't serve a purpose. We have plenty of blue gear available already.

[Glorious Leader]

Do you really think they have a dungeon team just sitting around waiting to be told to make dungeons?

Yes, they have teams for each, but nobody specials in 5 man dungeon making. The people that would be working on those dungeons are still working on other things.

The only reason you even want more dungeons is because you're bored of the current ones. That's an example as to why there shouldn't be anymore. You guys get bored too fast and they don't serve a purpose. We have plenty of blue gear available already.

I was bored of dailies pretty quick but we still got more of those

[SherbertLand]

I was bored of dailies pretty quick but we still got more of those

They don't take nearly as much time to make and they fill a purpose. You will always have a use for lesser charms and Blizzard's goal is still to get you out in the world. It's accomplishing that goal.

Heroics however, would have people flock to them for the month they're new and then they'll never be touched again.

[Glorious Leader]

They don't take nearly as much time to make and they fill a purpose. You will always have a use for lesser charms and Blizzard's goal is still to get you out in the world. It's accomplishing that goal.

Heroics however, would have people flock to them for the month they're new and then they'll never be touched again.

Dungeons fulfilled a purpose to, well they used to and could again. As for how long it takes to make them that isn't my concern. If the developers can't produce content I enjoy at a good pace then why should I continue to support them? Blizzards goal was not to get us out in the world for the sake of being out into the world. Their goal was to make the world feel alive again. Well it doesn't. Dailies don't do that and frankly I don't see the difference between running a dungeon for gear or running a daily. In either instance I'm just running through to kill stuff and get it over with. I'm not STAYING in the world or being excited or awed by it.

[SherbertLand]

Dungeons fulfilled a purpose to, well they used to and could again. As for how long it takes to make them that isn't my concern. If the developers can't produce content I enjoy at a good pace then why should I continue to support them? Blizzards goal was not to get us out in the world for the sake of being out into the world. Their goal was to make the world feel alive again. Well it doesn't. Dailies don't do that and frankly I don't see the difference between running a dungeon for gear or running a daily. In either instance I'm just running through to kill stuff and get it over with. I'm not STAYING in the world or being excited or awed by it.

The dungeons we already have fill the purpose you're saying they could again. They offer pre raid gear. Are you saying you want wider varieties of blue gear? If they cater to you now when you say you want more heroics, they'll have to start catering to you every other month when you get bored of the current heroics. That's just redundant.

[Glorious Leader]

The dungeons we already have fill the purpose you're saying they could again. They offer pre raid gear. Are you saying you want wider varieties of blue gear? If they cater to you now when you say you want more heroics, they'll have to start catering to you every other month when you get bored of the current heroics. That's just redundant.

right. so in 5.2 they catered to people who were bored of the 5.0 dailies by making more dailies. I'm sorry but OF COURSE OF COURSE. They catered to you and kept making more dailies so I don't understand what the problem is? Of course they design and build content to cater to members of their audience like DUH. If they didn't people wouldn't pay them the 15 bucks. I don't how understand how making new content is redundant, I thought it was the whole fucking point.

[MrHappy]

It's a fact for most people that repeating any content more than half a dozen times makes it boring. That includes heroics.

I mean i remember tons of threads complaining about lack of content in Cata because all people had to do was to grind heroics till the next patch. You can still do that today but you also have a lot more dailies and scenarios to add to the "things to do list". I mean lets be honest we all did dailies in Cata (molten front and whatnot) and in Wrath...we just HAD TO stop at 25 due to limit. If there was no limit you would have people grind every daily there is despite it no awarding VP.

[SherbertLand]

right. so in 5.2 they catered to people who were bored of the 5.0 dailies by making more dailies. I'm sorry but OF COURSE OF COURSE. They catered to you and kept making more dailies so I don't understand what the problem is? Of course they design and build content to cater to members of their audience like DUH. If they didn't people wouldn't pay them the 15 bucks. I don't how understand how making new content is redundant, I thought it was the whole fucking point.

They make content to fill a purpose. Dailies and scenarios, for example, (you should have noticed this tbh) are there to tell stories and give a little bit of gear progression in the form of valor, lesser charms, and everything else that can be found on the isle. The current dungeons serve the purpose to get you into a set of pre raid blues. That purpose is filled. Where do more heroics fit? I think you're underestimating how much time it takes to make an entirely new dungeon devoid of bugs vs a daily quest.