View Poll Results: Guilds of today would clear BC's SWP (non-gated) in the first reset

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  • Yes

    435 60.08%
  • Yes but would take at least two resets

    106 14.64%
  • No, they would do roughly as well as the guilds of BC

    142 19.61%
  • No, they would take longer than the guilds of BC

    41 5.66%
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  1. #61
    Pretty much all the Vanilla/BC raid bosses would be a walk in the park compared to some of the recent tiers.

    The real 'difficulty' of Vanilla/BC was the fact that there was a lot less information and people in general weren't very good because of this. The actual bosses and raids were nothing mind blowing.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    paragon would down that shit in 1 day, the guilds back then are just pure shit compared to the time/skill of today's guilds.
    You have no clue what your talking about scrubs of today dont understand how hard raiding was in bc. 300 Wipes on a boss for a kill is not skill btw. Back in bc you didn't have 500 abilities to stop damage or 500 abilities to move faster or fly across the room back then you actually had to not fuck up on your own and not count on other to save your ass. Plus there was none of this pussy ass crap they have today with lfr, normal, and heroic modes its was kill the boss or not until all you scrubs bitched and whined because I pay my 15 dollars i should be handed everything that someone else worked hard to get. In wow people that do nothing but complain they cant have everything are the bums of the world and the hardcore top of the world raiders/pvpers are the CEO's. If you spend time in your life doing anything even if its a game you should ALWAYS do it to the best of your abilities or its not worth wasting time on.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by varren View Post
    Pretty much all the Vanilla/BC raid bosses would be a walk in the park compared to some of the recent tiers.

    The real 'difficulty' of Vanilla/BC was the fact that there was a lot less information and people in general weren't very good because of this. The actual bosses and raids were nothing mind blowing.
    This is what crossed my mind when I saw this thread. Not sure how true it is, but it is what I think as well. I do also think another thing is the game has changed a ton since back in the day. Spells wise, balance etc. People were more limited in the past.

  4. #64
    High Overlord titcch's Avatar
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    The skill of todays guilds are just beyond anything I seen in my time during TBC, incredible skill and time spent on these fights. Just remember that most fights in ToT have more mechanics than maybe 3-4 bosses combined in TBC.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by scm0025 View Post
    You have no clue what your talking about scrubs of today dont understand how hard raiding was in bc. 300 Wipes on a boss for a kill is not skill btw. Back in bc you didn't have 500 abilities to stop damage or 500 abilities to move faster or fly across the room back then you actually had to not fuck up on your own and not count on other to save your ass. Plus there was none of this pussy ass crap they have today with lfr, normal, and heroic modes its was kill the boss or not until all you scrubs bitched and whined because I pay my 15 dollars i should be handed everything that someone else worked hard to get. In wow people that do nothing but complain they cant have everything are the bums of the world and the hardcore top of the world raiders/pvpers are the CEO's. If you spend time in your life doing anything even if its a game you should ALWAYS do it to the best of your abilities or its not worth wasting time on.
    Uhh raiding was a joke in BC. The biggest thing BC had going for it was the idea of gated content to make things seem *epic*. Most of the encounters were also bugged beyond all reason when guilds first got to them. That doesn't make the fights fun or interesting, it makes them stupid. Having Kael kill your healers at the start of P4 because he built threat throughout the fight when you couldn't even target him isn't awesome game design, its flawed. I won't even talk about Vashj. Attunments were garbage. None of the bosses from BC are anywhere near as complex as the harder encounters in the game are now. Rotations were simple, boss mechanics were simple. People were not as committed to getting to the top as they are now. Top guilds would plow through any old content in BC or vanilla within a week if the fights weren't broken to the point of Rag 1.0 C'thun 1.0 or the likes.

  6. #66
    Blood legion says hi... they were there they didnt do it come back later k thx

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by aikanaro View Post
    Blood legion says hi... they were there they didnt do it come back later k thx

    This. How people seem to forget.

  8. #68
    Today's raiders would clear it in the first reset. They are much more dedicated, spend more time, and they have all the lessons learned in the intervening years.

    The question of warglaives seems a case in point. Surely after BT was finished, the top guilds would have been doing alt runs just to funnel potential warglaives into the hands of their rogues? Even with rotten rng, they would have had more warglavies per guild than anyone actually had in BC.

    Frankly it seems that it's less the skill and more the sheer professionalism of the world's top guilds.

  9. #69
    No, it would probably take the same time, if not longer.

    If you bring the Addons back down to where they were in BC's times, get rid of these people (The raiding guilds) testing the encounters before release, then no, they would be on par with the top guilds at the time when SWP was relevant.

    There are so many advantages to today's raiding compared to "way back when" I really don't believe these top guilds would be any better, without those advantages.

  10. #70
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I don't recall guilds of yore having 5-8 raid teams, gearing up small portions of their core in each.

    Class stacking was a thing first seen in SWP, but even then it wasn't as dramatic as what we began to see on 0 lights and later on in Cata.

  11. #71
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    How is this even a question?

    Guilds are far more prepared and raid FAR more now. Everybody is also way better at their class.

    You see this type of 'arms race' growing every single expansion. There was a time in Vanilla where it was FUCKING UNHEARD of to use flasks during progression. I can recall the first guild killing C'thun when they fixed it having the 1200 health flask on EVERY SINGLE member and people going crazy over that. What happened in Naxx? People started doing old content for world buffs and having their hearthstones set to Felwood for the flower buffs.

    Ever since the first raid boss was killed the requirements to stay current have been steadily going up. We went from consumables only to world buffs and flasks. When world buffs were taken out we see more time added into raiding and hence 7 day raiding guilds (during progression being born). Since then we have seen more hours tacked onto these guilds during progression, more alts and funneling gear to mains between patches so that they have the best gear possible. It's simply not the same game as it was back in TBC.

    Take your nostalgia glasses off and realize that the game is way harder now. Sunwell while good for it's time is shit compared to what people have been doing now. I would fully expect that if you could take the best guilds of today and plant them back into the TBC they would steamroll a non-gated SWP in 1 day.

  12. #72
    i wonder how many people in this thread actually raided pre nerf SWP.
    And among them, i wonder how many passed brutalus.

    as for topic at hand. The top world guild, yes possibly. Raiding in wow has become far more "professional" than it was back in the day.
    But i would bet SWP would mop the floor with 90% of the guild in the game, including the one raiding in heroic 25 currently.
    Why is that, because SWP was less about damage race and more about lethal mechanic, though enrage timer did exist back then, there were not as tight as today.

    for example, archimonde, illidan, kil jaeden, i don't recall ever once hitting the enrage timer. All wipe were due to mechanics and human error.
    Mechanic and stepping out of the fire is generally not a problem for the best guild in the world. The most common problem is that they try to clean content essentially being undergeared, thus have a lack of dps due to gear and compensate by bringing less healer or stacking some classes. But fight mechanic are usually quickly assimilated.

  13. #73
    Gee... you are giving guilds a chance to have what... 5+ years of experience? Well of COURSE they would manage it now, that kind of experience and skill comes with time. Back in what... 2008 versus 2013... you think there is no way people don't improve? The only thing that will stop the top guilds is tuning really (be it that the fight is tuned too high for them in 1 week of Normal and barely 1 week of Heroic gear vs the intention of a few weeks of it built up for most normal guilds).
    Games are not necessarily "easier" today. You are just a better player.
    It takes more now to impress many gamers than it did 2-5 years ago, because so much has already been seen and done.
    Many players expect to be wow'd with every release of a beloved franchise.
    These are generally NOT the fault of the developers, but the fault of many players over-hyping and/or setting expectations too high.

  14. #74
    They would do it faster then guilds back then but mostly cos the prep and actual time spent raiding is so high now.

  15. #75
    It's pretty obvious that yes, they'd clear it easily. Look at how complex a Sunwell fight is versus a modern HM boss. There are more complex mechanics on some of the summoned bosses in Isle of Thunder!

    Plus every aspect of the game is now well-understood and well modelled, these guilds have a huge wealth of experience with bosses to the point that almost every mechanic has been seen before. No disrespect to those old guilds, the game was just a lot newer back then and modern resources just weren't available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mowg View Post
    Although Pre-pre-pre-nerf Muru's difficulty has been inflated in discourse through time, a lot of people forget that he was downed in this state by SK-Gaming. It took them 45 hours spread over 5 days.
    Haha, wow. 45 hours is nothing to modern progression guilds.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 01:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    i wonder how many people in this thread actually raided pre nerf SWP.
    And among them, i wonder how many passed brutalus.

    as for topic at hand. The top world guild, yes possibly. Raiding in wow has become far more "professional" than it was back in the day.
    But i would bet SWP would mop the floor with 90% of the guild in the game, including the one raiding in heroic 25 currently.
    Why is that, because SWP was less about damage race and more about lethal mechanic, though enrage timer did exist back then, there were not as tight as today.

    for example, archimonde, illidan, kil jaeden, i don't recall ever once hitting the enrage timer. All wipe were due to mechanics and human error.
    Mechanic and stepping out of the fire is generally not a problem for the best guild in the world. The most common problem is that they try to clean content essentially being undergeared, thus have a lack of dps due to gear and compensate by bringing less healer or stacking some classes. But fight mechanic are usually quickly assimilated.
    Also remember that SWP didn't have NM and HM so basically you're asking every guild in the world to step immediately into Heroic mode.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 01:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I don't recall guilds of yore having 5-8 raid teams, gearing up small portions of their core in each.

    Class stacking was a thing first seen in SWP, but even then it wasn't as dramatic as what we began to see on 0 lights and later on in Cata.
    I'll never forget KIN Raider's kill on Spine with almost a whole raid of sub rogues and arc mages. And in the interview they thanked all the other classes for their important contributions as "support classes" for the rogues and mages! Gold.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2013-03-25 at 01:09 AM.
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  16. #76
    Rofl at these posts.

    The game has changed so much that you cant even compare the game then and now.

    The raids were completely different because the game was still considered a RPG, it wasnt all about "Everyone being the same cause of arena and recount QQ".

    Different classes had different jobs back then, they couldnt all do everything.

    Shadowpriests were mana batteries, moonkins were giving 5% crit, bla bla bla..The comparison is stupid, today 2 classes can do what 8 classes did back then, it is not the same game anymore.

    As example, mass dispel required to counter the summons at Muru, which is considered the harder boss up to then...If they added anything like that again the whole WoW forums would explode from the QQ, requesting every class to get mass dispel instead of just changing the mechanic.

    Also, the raiders that had the brains and skill to do those fights are the same people in the top 20 guilds, of course not everyone is still playing and not everyone is from back then but if you search you will probably find a lot of them or their rerolled alt during cata/wotlk.

    Also, some of the top guilds existed back then also..They didnt magically appear of nowhere as someone mentioned, most of them have the same raiders or at least some of them.

    There is a big difference of a boss with 5 abilities out of 6 wipe you, versus 10 abilities a boss has than only 2-3 wipe you while the other 7-8 are there just for special effects and for the healers to have something to do.

    The fights nowadays have more mechanics but not nearly half as lethal as the mechanics back then.

    Quick example http://www.wowhead.com/spell=124077 , doesnt change from LFR to 25 heroic.

    For the ability to be similar to Vanilla/TBC values it should be hitting for 70-120k per second, if not interrupted in 2 seconds = wipe.

    Thats the difference between raids then and now..the damage values of abilities are more forgiving, while there are more abilities to deal with.
    Last edited by potis; 2013-03-25 at 01:26 AM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir View Post
    Gee... you are giving guilds a chance to have what... 5+ years of experience? Well of COURSE they would manage it now, that kind of experience and skill comes with time. Back in what... 2008 versus 2013... you think there is no way people don't improve? The only thing that will stop the top guilds is tuning really (be it that the fight is tuned too high for them in 1 week of Normal and barely 1 week of Heroic gear vs the intention of a few weeks of it built up for most normal guilds).
    The main reason today's guilds would have an easier time clearing old content is a) more time spent raiding, b) more time spent testing encounters out on test realms, c) gear funnelling via alts, d) geared alts to help with class stacking. All of the above would without a doubt help current guilds clear content much faster than the top guilds back in the day.

    Skill and experience has very little to do with it. The top players today aren't more skilled than the top players back in either TBC or even Classic. As far as experience goes, perhaps if World of Warcraft was as deep as Starcraft, it would matter, but as it stands, there is little you will learn in 5 years of raiding that you could not have learned in 1 year. World of Warcraft isn't a game that take years to master on a personal level, certainly not if you started playing it competitively from the get-go.

    On that note, back in 2005 there were already games out there with insanely high skillcaps. Games that required incredible awareness, reaction times, and split time decision making. Let's take the popular 90s Arena Style FPS game 'Quake' as an example.

    In Quake you have to make perfectly timed, perfectly positioned jumps, at gaming speeds that far outstrip anything in World of Warcraft.
    In Quake you have to be able to make these jumps while being actively harassed or chased down by an enemy player.
    In Quake you have to dodge rockets that can reach you from across the map in less than a second.
    In Quake you have to juggle multiple timers in your head for the entirety of a match, or risk playing at a huge disadvantage.
    In Quake you have to be able to control a map by following a very strict 'rotation', highly based on all the timers you're juggling in your head.
    In Quake you have to be able to do your very best to predict the actions of another human player.
    In Quake, if you want to play a team game, you have to do all of the above in unison with your team. You have to do it better than the other team.
    In Quake every single 'ability' is a skillshot. There is no 'target' you can select, and there is no button for autohit.

    Quake is a game that was released almost 20 years ago.

    What I'm trying to point out by the above is the fact that gaming has not taken any great leaps in terms of difficulty over the past few years. Even back in the 90s there were plenty of games with unreachable skillcaps. Many of the skills a Quake player had to rely on can be equated directly to the sets of skill a world class raider in World of Warcraft has to rely on today. I honestly can't think of anything in WoW's current raiding environment that competitive FPS gamers from the 90s would struggle with to a greater degree than competitive gamers today would. Good reaction times, good awareness, good split-second decision making and good teamwork. It's all very similar, even if you might think not standing in fire is more complicated than dodging multiple high speed rockets.

    TL;DR: Competitive gamers today are pretty much exactly the same as competitive gamers 5, 10, 15 or even 20 years ago. What a top WoW player could learn in 8 hours back in 2005, a top WoW player can learn in 8 hours today (given access to the same tools and whatnot). So by all means keep time as a relevant factor, but putting skill into the equation is just silly.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    paragon would down that shit in 1 day, the guilds back then are just pure shit compared to the time/skill of today's guilds.
    Paragon was raiding back then, just not as Paragon iirc, and no they didn't down it in one reset.
    You say that I'm cold, and sometimes I'm out of control.

  19. #79
    As a player who played at bleeding edge in SWP era I'd give it a definite no. This is not to say that the players of today aren't skilled enough to do it but the fact that it would just be mathematically impossible. The sheer dps/healing requirements on original M'uru make the tuning of H dark animus look pathetic. Also a lot of people seem to believe that players today are "better". Reality check: the game is easier than it's ever been today with Ui and streamlined talents. The players in bleeding edge guilds today are talented players but SK/nihi/D&T were all comprised of players that were just as good. Also a lot of people seem to remember that boss encounters were easier but forget that class mechanics were also exponentially harder to work with. Even something like a predictable add phase in BC could easily wipe a raid with how challenging threat was and how hard trash hit.

  20. #80
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Yes, raiders today are more skilled than raiders back in BC overall, especially the elite.
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