Guilds of today would clear BC's SWP (non-gated) in the first reset

[Deleted]

Of course they would! Old raids are A LOT easier when it comes to tactics, the only thing those bosses had was insane tuning and that doesn't make a boss harder, just annoying. We raided AQ40 and old Naxx without voice com and were pretty good at it. I can't imagine doing bosses today without voice coms and 1000x video guides everywhere + tons of addons. Back then we only had decursive and maybe some recount and that was it.

People who say TBC and Classic WoW were hard are the ones who are too influenced by nostalgia of how better and more awesome it was, with a lot harder bosses to make them feel special, but the truth is way different than what they say it was.

[Deleted]

Not sure if i agree , i remember doing transmog runs in Sunwell at 85 and people still dying to muru,

At level 80 (not 85) Muru was probably the easiest boss in Sunwell, because what made him hard was the sheer amount of damage going out combined with one of the most brutal DPS races they've put in the game. (vanilla)

if people were dying at 85 then it was no one's fault but the healers, as he was utterly faceroll even at level 80.

yes though, at level 70 his damage output was indeed completely crazy. Especially in his pre nerf form when the raid damage caused spell pushback, resulting in lower DPS AND, crucially, HPS.

[Gondlem]

Simple answer is yes, probably. But it's a different game. Sunwell was a hard zone full of great and memorable bosses, but there were only six of them, and people are more experienced today. Players would simply adapt to the requirements of the zone and clear it the same way they clear other challenging content today. I'd argue that a fight like Durumu (heroic of course) would fit pretty well into the second half of Sunwell in terms of the tuning and pressure on the whole raid, the execution requirements on Animus significantly outstrip anything in Sunwell, and I doubt any Sunwell boss would live as long as Lei Shen has. That said, in Sunwell you couldn't really bring large numbers of alts for class stacking, DPS rotations were simpler but punished mistakes far more harshly, and the game was based more around absolute black and white pass or fail checks than strategic questions your raid had to answer etc.

In Sunwell, you stopped healing the tank for one second and they died. You didn't use a consumable the right way, you went oom, even as a dps. You moved more than necessary as a ranged and your DPS dropped significantly, etc. These days the game is more forgiving from an individual standpoint in the sense that you can move more freely, you can make small mistakes without ruining your ability to complete the encounter etc, but the collective execution checks your raid goes through are far more taxing. Players improve every expansion and no doubt they'd adapt just fine back to a Sunwell model and clear it in a week or so given that it's only six bosses.

[Akylios]

The top guilds today are MUCH, MUCH more skilled and dedicated than they were years ago.

People who say TBC and Classic WoW were hard are the ones who are too influenced by nostalgia of how better and more awesome it was, with a lot harder bosses to make them feel special, but the truth is way different than what they say it was.

I already asked this question, but can someone (just anyone) please explain to me what exactly World of Warcraft has brought to the world of gaming, in the past 5 or 6 years, that would be especially hard for the competitive gamers of years past to master?

[Valsh]

Last phase of m'uru isn't very execution heavy and relies a lot on "numbers"(chain healing, raw dps before his chain lightning ramped up too much). I think the content being gated helped a lot with getting those numbers. The game was also in a very different state with bloodlusts being rotated per group per shaman and chainheal being broken.

[Akraen]

There should only be 1 raid difficulty now that there is LFR.

No need for heroic. Simply tune up normal a little more and remove heroic. Let the top guilds take a breath, eat properly, stop taking stims, and have a couple other hobbies. Leave in the bosses like Ra-den to keep them busy (or a couple activated hard-modes) - but not the "Heroic Difficulty"

[Toxigen]

Going back to version 1.0 M'uru:

Even if the best 25 raiders in the world had full T6 gear, 3 rogues with both Warglaives, and everyone was a LWer (let's face it, any serious guild had 20+ LWers in every raid)...they still would not have been able to down the ORIGINAL version of M'uru.

SK had FIVE WEEKS of Kalecgos, Brutallus, and Felmyst loot on top of two weeks of Eredar Twins loot before their first pull of M'uru.

I don't think there is any difference between the Method/Paragon/Blood Legion of now and the SK Gaming of BC in skill and/or ability to perform without a single mistake on a fight like M'uru 1.0. I'm rather confident the fight would have been mathematically impossible with only pre-Sunwell gear...unless you had something stupid like 6 rogues all with Warglaives.

[laplacedemon]

Lets start with the legendaries. Dragonwrath can in no way be compared to Warglaives, due to the way the two are obtained. Your guild is guaranteed to have x amount of Dragonwrath after y amount of weeks. Warglaives are a random drop, and many guilds never saw a single one drop, much less collect a set. Other guilds, like mine, saw a complete set after our first two kills.
This greatly influences how many legendaries you have available for your raid in TBC.

And that's why the current top guilds would have the edge, even if they were unlucky. Method has 2x25man runs and 10man runs during a single week. BL has even more as far as I noticed. As I said, they have many similarly geared alts, which they are using all the time. If they were doing Black Temple, they would farm it in a most efficient way.

Second, the professions are much more balances now in terms of usefulness than in TBC where blacksmithing was useless if you had BT gear. Sure you may have needed a blacksmith to craft some gear, but that didn't require you to be that blacksmith. In late TBC the drums from leatherworking were the kings. You basically had 25 people who had to level the same profession at the same time. The logistics of this task is ten times greater than having 25 people have four or five different professions.
Today the difference in the usefulness of professions (the crafting ones) is minuscule. It is in no way comparable to the difference in TBC.

Yet, people already did it. When the epic gems became available at Dragon Soul patch, a lot of the people from top guilds switched to Blacksmithing because it provided a miniscule difference in main stats. They are already doing profession switching for much, much less gains than LW provided during TBC. What makes you think they would go 'meh, not worth the farm'?

Third, the alts that each person has in the raid. While they were also there in TBC, you're basically asking that every raider, in order to clear SWP in one reset, must have several characters with BT BiS gear. That is simply not going to happen. You're asking that 16-17 people (The amount of DPS'ers) have alts with BiS gear from BT, along with the skill that is required to play them 100 %.

If you look at the world first M'uru kill, they had 2-3 people left alive. That tolerance shows that if just one person is on his alt which he cannot play 100 %, the raid wouldn't have downed M'uru that try, or even that week.

Please take a look at Paragon's, Method's and Blood Legion's armories. Their rosters are big, bigger than normal guilds. They all have at least one alt which is geared and cleared last tier's heroic modes.

I am sorry, but I think you are underestimating current top guilds a lot. I'm not saying current players are much better players than TBC top guilds (and I actually know a few of them), but heroic raiding got more and more demanding in time.

[Palmz]

It wouldn't even last a week. 5 days at most.

[Deleted]

No.

Due to necessity of finding raiders in the current state of WoW, current top raiding guilds are filled with disgusting skilless trash who wouldn't have made it past Razorgore, much less pre-nerf Vash & Kael.

Anyone who has been in a top raiding guild since classic will be able to confirm that.

[Tekkommo]

Yes, so much more time is put into raiding these days compared to back then.

[Hedleyazg]

No.

Due to necessity of finding raiders in the current state of WoW, current top raiding guilds are filled with disgusting skilless trash who wouldn't have made it past Razorgore, much less pre-nerf Vash & Kael.

Anyone who has been in a top raiding guild since classic will be able to confirm that.

They should make a new Razorgore type encounter in the game.

[Shampro]

More time put in to raiding + experience. Dead no doubt.

[Palmz]

No.

Due to necessity of finding raiders in the current state of WoW, current top raiding guilds are filled with disgusting skilless trash who wouldn't have made it past Razorgore, much less pre-nerf Vash & Kael.

Anyone who has been in a top raiding guild since classic will be able to confirm that.

Raided in Vanilla and BC at the top level. Cleared to KT in Naxx 40 weeks before BC came out. No theory crafting, small basic rotations, limited class combinations, smaller rosters, main's only, etc. The list can go on and on. Guilds like Method and Paragon would clear Sunwell in one day, maybe two days. Blood Legion following shortly there after.

[Deleted]

paragon would down that shit in 1 day, the guilds back then are just pure shit compared to the time/skill of today's guilds.

Given if there'd be a 10 man version of SWP. Also, you've no idea - and back then, you needed alot of more time.

Just one example, most guilds had an 80 man roster in vanilla. 40 man who raid, and 40 man who farm consumables.

---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 06:57 PM ----------

Raided in Vanilla and BC at the top level. Cleared to KT in Naxx 40 weeks before BC came out. No theory crafting, small basic rotations, limited class combinations, smaller rosters, main's only, etc. The list can go on and on. Guilds like Method and Paragon would clear Sunwell in one day, maybe two days. Blood Legion following shortly there after.

Like weeks before TBC even came out? You must have been world first level then, highly doubtful judged by your other arguments. Paragon has a smaller roster than probably any fun guild you'll meet in WoW. Also, they just used 2 alts during the whole ToT progression. Just becauses bosses have more abilities or *more* complex mechanics nowadays, it doesnt meet that they're truly harder than anything in classic or TBC, or even WotLK. Guilds like Paragon, BL or Method would still need weeks to progress in SWP.

[Tholl]

I already asked this question, but can someone (just anyone) please explain to me what exactly World of Warcraft has brought to the world of gaming, in the past 5 or 6 years, that would be especially hard for the competitive gamers of years past to master?

Nothing at all.

I played since Vanilla. The dynamics have changed, but for some reason people seem to think that it has made the game harder. It hasn't. There are more addons now telling you what to do, it is not as gear dependant (RNG was killer along with attunement, rep grinds etc), and bosses tend to be more forgiving. Hell, people now would put their heads through a wall trying to get the 40 people together for a raid, let alone all those on stand by who are waiting for open spots if someone drops.

There are only so many times you can have a boss that has adds spawning, an enrage timer, or a circle of death on the ground you need to move out of. Every dynamic has been used at this point, it is just dressed up differently and labeled as 'New and exciting'. It is not.

WoW has become a mouse maze, and the players are just running through it trying to get the new shiny cheese every patch.

[Palmz]

Given if there'd be a 10 man version of SWP. Also, you've no idea - and back then, you needed alot of more time.

Just one example, most guilds had an 80 man roster in vanilla. 40 man who raid, and 40 man who farm consumables.

---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 06:57 PM ----------



Like weeks before TBC even came out? You must have been world first level then, highly doubtful judged by your other arguments. Paragon has a smaller roster than probably any fun guild you'll meet in WoW. Also, they just used 2 alts during the whole ToT progression. Just becauses bosses have more abilities or *more* complex mechanics nowadays, it doesnt meet that they're truly harder than anything in classic or TBC, or even WotLK. Guilds like Paragon, BL or Method would still need weeks to progress in SWP.

Yeah, weeks before BC came out. I was in a top US guild at the time and no, maybe a few people made alt's for progression. What made bosses so much harder back then were the limitations WoW had at the time. Now that the skies the limit for guilds these days it would make clearing Sunwell an absolute joke.

[varren]

Pretty much all the Vanilla/BC raid bosses would be a walk in the park compared to some of the recent tiers.

The real 'difficulty' of Vanilla/BC was the fact that there was a lot less information and people in general weren't very good because of this. The actual bosses and raids were nothing mind blowing.

[scm0025]

paragon would down that shit in 1 day, the guilds back then are just pure shit compared to the time/skill of today's guilds.

You have no clue what your talking about scrubs of today dont understand how hard raiding was in bc. 300 Wipes on a boss for a kill is not skill btw. Back in bc you didn't have 500 abilities to stop damage or 500 abilities to move faster or fly across the room back then you actually had to not fuck up on your own and not count on other to save your ass. Plus there was none of this pussy ass crap they have today with lfr, normal, and heroic modes its was kill the boss or not until all you scrubs bitched and whined because I pay my 15 dollars i should be handed everything that someone else worked hard to get. In wow people that do nothing but complain they cant have everything are the bums of the world and the hardcore top of the world raiders/pvpers are the CEO's. If you spend time in your life doing anything even if its a game you should ALWAYS do it to the best of your abilities or its not worth wasting time on.

[KCguy]

Pretty much all the Vanilla/BC raid bosses would be a walk in the park compared to some of the recent tiers.

The real 'difficulty' of Vanilla/BC was the fact that there was a lot less information and people in general weren't very good because of this. The actual bosses and raids were nothing mind blowing.

This is what crossed my mind when I saw this thread. Not sure how true it is, but it is what I think as well. I do also think another thing is the game has changed a ton since back in the day. Spells wise, balance etc. People were more limited in the past.