View Poll Results: Guilds of today would clear BC's SWP (non-gated) in the first reset

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  • Yes

    435 60.08%
  • Yes but would take at least two resets

    106 14.64%
  • No, they would do roughly as well as the guilds of BC

    142 19.61%
  • No, they would take longer than the guilds of BC

    41 5.66%
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  1. #121
    Yes I think so, the average quality of player has vastly improved. I played in a top 40 guild in Sunwell but I'd probably struggle now as would a lot of the people I played with, the standard when I stopped playing was far higher and some of the encounters far more complex.

    That said my enthusiasm was not what it had been during Sunwell so that contributed, I knew my class and role inside out and knew encounters inside out before facing them too, in Cata/MoP I could not be bothered with any of that any more, perhaps that had more bearing on my performance rather than the increasing difficulty.

    There was also more open discussions on bosses before they were downed back then too, EJ had threads on M'uru etc before anyone had killed it and certainly whilst the 'chasing pack' were still trying to kill it.

    We already had to use things like Drums of Battle to give us the edge when in Sunwell the first time so maybe the place was just too damn tightly tuned.
    Last edited by Beasty; 2013-03-26 at 10:49 AM.

  2. #122
    Its very hard to tell. The game was very different back then, and you had a fraction of all the CC/tools/etc that we have today.

    Non-gated I'd guess it would take them ~2 resets. Back in those days there were no encounter journals to study abilities beforehand, you actually had to find out yourself in which phase each boss spell/ability was going.

  3. #123
    Scarab Lord Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    rofl @ all these people saying "dead first reset, do doubt"

    You people don't have the slightest clue as to how tightly tuned M'uru 1.0 was.

    I don't know where that guy got the 45 hours worth of progression for SK to down it...but keep in mind they were the only guild in the world to do so. On top of that, they had more than a month's worth of Sunwell farm gear due to gating. Like I mentioned before, Kalecgos, Felmyst, and Brutallus were dead five weeks prior to M'uru...and the Twins were dead two or three weeks prior to the release of M'uru. That is a lot of gear, ladies and gentlemen.

    The skill difference between SK of old and Method / Blood Legion / Paragon of today is minimal, especially on a raw throughput fight like M'uru. They still would stack resto shaman, everyone would be a LWer (if you don't know why, don't be posting in this thread), and they would NOT kill M'uru 1.0 without a miraculous amount of Warglaives (even then, I'm not sure if it could be done with 6 rogues in the raid, even if they all had glaives). It would have been mathematically impossible without the extra Sunwell gear.
    The reason why Sunwell Plateau was as hard as it was was mainly because of the strict class compostion you had to follow to actually be able to take down a boss like M'uru. The "raid" buffs were only group wide, so that meant that if you wanted your class to perform at its fullest potential, you needed other classes with beneficial buffs for you in that same group. That is a quite huge deal especially when most players still were working on older raids, while the top raiders were way, way ahead, without many options to achieve this perfect composition.

    Compare that to how buffs work today as well as look at how top raiders have multiple alts to achieve the perfect raiding composition, I don't think M'uru pre-nerf would have been as much of an issue as it was in TBC. Hard? Yes. Impossible? As long as it was not bugged and was way, way overtuned, the answer would be no.

  4. #124
    Herald of the Titans inboundpaper's Avatar
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    They probably would, they be crazy.
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  5. #125
    Pandaren Monk solvexx's Avatar
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    They would walk through it like it was a 5 man dungeon.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    Compare that to how buffs work today as well as look at how top raiders have multiple alts to achieve the perfect raiding composition, I don't think M'uru pre-nerf would have been as much of an issue as it was in TBC. Hard? Yes. Impossible? As long as it was not bugged and was way, way overtuned, the answer would be no.
    But that would be Sunwell, not post TBC raid. You would once again be restricted to group buffs, Shadow Priests being mana batteries, Alliance retri palas doing 10% less dps and so on. If we use modern talent trees, there's no comparison - hell, just imagine tanking adds. Zero chance of Berserker turning around and one shotting your dps warrior after (un)lucky Windfury proc. Classes other than Warlocks being able to AOE mini voids. Being knocked around in P2 barely reducing your dps.

    I still say plenty of people don't realize how much of a wall he was and were completely spoiled by new talents. Especially tanks. Also, so far there has been a single answer from top player saying they'd farm T6 a lot more. Would that be enough? Maybe - with sufficient number of Glaives. Without them? Still "maybe", but nowhere near as trivial as some people believe.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Zero chance of Berserker turning around and one shotting your dps warrior after (un)lucky Windfury proc.
    Ah jeez tell me about it! Being the tank if I got a less than perfect start on them it could lead to trouble. It happened on our first kill actually but I just watched the video back and for the first time ever I realise he was attacking the wrong berserker.

    There was no easy way of gaining massive threat on those things like berserk or maul glyph, in some ways it was a lot harder back then but the simplification of some aspects of the game has allowed for complication in others. I am really unsure now as to which period of raiding was the harder haha.
    Last edited by Beasty; 2013-03-26 at 01:49 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Vashi View Post
    I voted yes. Since the amount of people you could let fail and still kill a boss was riddiculous, nowadays there is no room for almost a single fuck up on heroic raiding. The combat awareness has grow a lot since TBC/Vanilla. The average "skill lets say" in raiding style is higher.
    You're an idiot. Clearly you had no experience in Sunwell (before the raid-wide nerf). A single mistake on M'uru would be a raid wipe...you literally didn't even bother with combat res in P1 because a loss of ANY player was an instant wipe.

    I can't believe these people are still thinking the argument is based on Sunwell being implemented into 5.2 and people trying it.

    Get it through your abnormally thick skulls that the argument is as follows:

    All of the top guilds travel back in time to Sunwell's release (or rather, someone hosts a private server patched only up to patch 2.4 March 25 2008). There is no gating (all bosses available week one), and they have BIS gear from BT / Hyjal and nothing more. Patch 2.4 talents, skills, everything.

    Sure, if they had 6 sets of Warglaives they might kill a version 1.0 M'uru in the first week. Even with six months worth of gear funneling, they may only have ended up with 3-4 sets (let's face it, its all in the luck with those glaives). The difference is SK had over a month worth of Sunwell loot to collect because of gating. Given an equal number of Warlgaive sets (2), the guilds of today might not have been able to kill M'uru 1.0 in the first reset.

    Now, if you really want to compare apples to apples:

    Let's say the top guilds of today were to follow the same gating schedule. I have zero doubts M'uru 1.0 would be killed in fewer wipes and less time than SK managed to do it. However, you folks seem to think it would have been "ez pz" if it had been available week one. All of you are sorely mistaken.

    Please don't call someone an idiot. There are other ways of saying it. (by Sonnillon)
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-03-27 at 12:23 PM.

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  9. #129
    i am doubtful that they whould ahve downed it first reset. i think they whould get stuck on m'uru.
    don't think bt/hyjal gear whouldnt not have been enough to down that boss on the first reset.
    However, if we assume that the nerfs to the encounter whould occur as they did back then (pushbacks gone after 1 week) m'uru whould probobly go down on 2nd reset along with kj.
    you have to remember that when muru opend up guilds had alot of sunwellgear on them (wich is way more powerful then bt/hyjalgear). and even then only curse downed the boss the first week if i remember correct. (they were way faster then any other guild)

  10. #130
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    Yeah they would have.

    The level of preparation is higher now. You think they class stacked and ran multiple runs to get the best gear back then, it's nothing compared to what they do today. People still raided a lot back then but they raid even more now.

    Bosses are far more complex these days and they formulate strategies far quicker than they did in the past. The only thing stopping people would be gear. Mistakes from missing mass dispels or picking up adds are pretty laughable compared to what people are asked to do today. I am sure they would wipe to M'uru a decent amount because of the damage requirements, but the overall wipes would be drastically reduced as mistakes from anything but hard damage requirements would be way reduced.

    Sure people killed M'uru 5 days after he was released with a months worth of gear, but I believe people would have been even more prepared 'gear wise' for Sunwell with today's mindset. These guilds of today (many of which still raided in Sunwell) would only be wiping to numbers, not wiping to mechanics. You have to take into consideration that complexity wise M'uru was fairly complex and was probably a decent chunk of wipes when he was a progression boss back in TBC. If you took those guilds back in time with their current mindset, the complexity would be laughed at and it would just be gear.

    Still I think the entirety of Sunwell would be cleared in several days max.

  11. #131
    Sunwell was one of the hardest raids in WoW. Remember that class mechanics worked a lot differently back then as well. There were some classes / specs that you couldn't take even if you wanted to just because they were that bad (Ret Paladins). So while Boss fights might be a little more "complex" now, you have to consider that class mechanics match that new complexity. In Bc some classes only had 2 - 3 button rotations.

    I would say they would take roughly as long as the top guilds back then.
    Last edited by nyc81991; 2013-03-26 at 06:17 PM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    You have to take into consideration that complexity wise M'uru was fairly complex and was probably a decent chunk of wipes when he was a progression boss back in TBC.
    It wasn't complexity that made guilds wipe, the strategy was down quite quick. Just pure numbers and lucky tanks.

  13. #133
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I say we revamp the Caverns of Time with their new scaling technology.

    Improve the scaling tech to turn gear into a pre-determined set. Snapshot talents and abilities at the patch release when you zone in.

    Offer modernized, re-textured, incredible transmog gear from the end-bosses of these runs. Purely as-it-was scaling.

    Then let's see who walks all over the old content.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoslux View Post
    Considering all bosses before the first gate died on the first day and the only bosses that took some time were M'uru (5 days / 45 hours as mentioned earlier) and KilJaeden (3 days) i would say that it would definitely go down on the first reset, before any nerfs.

    The fact that it took 5 days and they spent around 45 hours on the boss would mean they raided 8 hours a day back then, while it isnt unheard of for guilds nowadays to raid 16 hours a day just to get a world first. Hell didn't Blood Legion stay up something ridiculous like 25 hours when the first week for heroic throne progression started?
    You shouldn't use Blood Legion as an example. They weren't and aren't at the level needed to compete for world firsts and try to make up for it with more time spent. Method is the only guild that would give BC guilds competition since Paragon isn't 25 man anymore.

  15. #135
    Pretty sure there was much less information about the bosses and much less add ons back then. Was PTR even available?

  16. #136
    the top 1% of guilds would clear it in 1 reset...the rest would fail horrifically on trash..spend 3 hours getting to kalegos...wipe for the rest of the night trying to get "loljustzerg" mentality out of their raiders....

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 04:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Yeah they would have.

    The level of preparation is higher now. You think they class stacked and ran multiple runs to get the best gear back then, it's nothing compared to what they do today. People still raided a lot back then but they raid even more now.

    Bosses are far more complex these days and they formulate strategies far quicker than they did in the past. The only thing stopping people would be gear. Mistakes from missing mass dispels or picking up adds are pretty laughable compared to what people are asked to do today. I am sure they would wipe to M'uru a decent amount because of the damage requirements, but the overall wipes would be drastically reduced as mistakes from anything but hard damage requirements would be way reduced.

    Sure people killed M'uru 5 days after he was released with a months worth of gear, but I believe people would have been even more prepared 'gear wise' for Sunwell with today's mindset. These guilds of today (many of which still raided in Sunwell) would only be wiping to numbers, not wiping to mechanics. You have to take into consideration that complexity wise M'uru was fairly complex and was probably a decent chunk of wipes when he was a progression boss back in TBC. If you took those guilds back in time with their current mindset, the complexity would be laughed at and it would just be gear.

    Still I think the entirety of Sunwell would be cleared in several days max.
    It depends if your counting LOLFR in your "raiding" count...if not, then people raided a LOT more in TBC then today, timewise...And strats are made so much more quickly, because its all virtually a rehashed and recolored version of something they've seen 10 times before..and the "complexity" is just them stacking those rehashed abilities on top of another...

  17. #137
    Yea, it would be cleared first week. People in general are way better now and top raiders are no exception.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    You're an idiot.
    What a great way to start a conversation. Look, this guys opinion differs from mine, he must have some developmental disorder.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    Pretty sure there was much less information about the bosses and much less add ons back then. Was PTR even available?
    PTR was up for the first gate(Kalecgos/Brutallus/Felmyst). Modern guilds would know that the first 3 bosses were a complete joke, and run them with like 6 different raids to funnel gear. Between that and the more thorough raid stacking(people did some serious stacking back then, especially with shaman, but modern guilds have better geared alts played by more prepared players with regards to handling multiple classes), I think a 1 rest might be possible, but I wouldn't say it's a 100% sure thing like some others have. Eredar Twins and KJ might actually eat up a couple days of raid time too between the two of them, so Muru would only need to hold up for a few days on his own to take a 2nd reset.

  20. #140
    I voted 2 weeks because they may need some gear to pass Muru.

    The rest would be fine.
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