Raiding guilds.

[Firebert]

as long as you look like a promising player.

Unfortunately you can't look like a promising player to anyone any more due to the Raiding Catch 22.

[Deleted]

Unfortunately you can't look like a promising player to anyone any more due to the Raiding Catch 22.

Yes you can, that you are required to pug some stuff, gets logs and show that you have a clue about your class isn't exactly new or extremly taxing. People who can't do that just have to climb/guildhop a bit, exactly like in previous expos.

[Herrenos]

it's too bad, because IMO 25's are way, way more fun.

I agree about it being easier to do 10's, and sometimes you can have better camraderie

But for sheer awesomeness, nothing compares to the bigger raid format.

[Firebert]

Yes you can, that you are required to pug some stuff, gets logs and show that you have a clue about your class isn't exactly new or extremly taxing.

That's the Catch 22.

Guildhopping not possible due to guild levels and rep.

[Dracodraco]

As the raidleader and "tactician" of a top 100 25 man guild - it's ALOT of work. Just tonight, I spent an hour in preparation of Ji-kun, writing out group rotations to make sure we cover all nests, while still soaking the feed buffs for the DPS. We need 4 groups constantly in motion, and the responsibility of keeping track of that lies on me.
In comparison, 10 man needs two groups, as far as I've been told by my 10-man friends.

[Deleted]

That's the Catch 22.

There are absolutely zero things preventing you from pugging the easier raiding content. Some groups will accept you without experience, in some you need to be able to discuss a bit, in some you might have to link a character who has done the raid (your own or another). Assuming that you actually try, instead of just whispering the guy shouting for 510 ilvl in msv once, you can easily pug some stuff.

To talk about myself. As I got my dk to 90 a few months ago I had ~455 ilvl after two hours (did all the quests giving decent items as I leveled, did three heroics, and sha boots), I was litterarly asking for the gear that was going to be disenchanted, just to get into msv rf. My 455 ilvl (lol)+me being quite convincing was enough to get me into a 9/10 guildrun in msv (I didn't even need to link a character with an achive). During said guildrun we ended up clearing msv, and the first two bosses in hof (the second being progression for them), neither me or the guild thought I'd be able to tank blade-lord with that gear I had but with proper cd usage it was really not a massive issue and me explaining a few mechanics made it quite simple. You could say that I got carried, but I did almost exactly the same thing an hour after dinging my mage a few weeks ago. This time with just below 450 ilvl, and we only got 4/6 down, but I was topping or second on the meter on every single fight (admittedly arcane was broken as fuck, but still).

Guildhopping not possible due to guild levels and rep.

What? How is that preventing you from changing guilds in any way, shape or form? Do you even play this game?

---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 04:41 AM ----------

As the raidleader and "tactician" of a top 100 25 man guild - it's ALOT of work. Just tonight, I spent an hour in preparation of Ji-kun, writing out group rotations to make sure we cover all nests, while still soaking the feed buffs for the DPS. We need 4 groups constantly in motion, and the responsibility of keeping track of that lies on me.
In comparison, 10 man needs two groups, as far as I've been told by my 10-man friends.

This is really the biggest "addition" as a 25 man raid leader, you have to spend way more (you spend a fair bit for 10 man raiding as well) time outside of the actual game preparing for raids/encounters. There's simply more players/things/roles to assign/explain.

[Firebert]

There are absolutely zero things preventing you from pugging the easier raiding content. Some groups will accept you without experience, in some you need to be able to discuss a bit, in some you might have to link a character who has done the raid (your own or another).

Everyone wants the third option. I don't have the achievement. Catch 22.

What? How is that preventing you from changing guilds in any way, shape or form?

If you're in a max level guild, and you want to jump to (say) a level 6 guild for some old Normals, you lose a tonne of passives from the guild levels, access to guild items due to guild level, and all of your guild rep which you'll need to regrind out for the old heirlooms or pets should you want them.

Why do you think you're seeing loads of little guilds with ten people in them? Guildhopping is gone.

[Shuyin]

my guild would go 25 anytime if our realm wasn't so dead we can't even have replacements for our 10 team.

[Deleted]

Everyone wants the third option. I don't have the achievement. Catch 22.

First all of not true (assuming that you just don't say ok bb when they ask if you've done it). If it is, explain that you know what to do. If that doesn't work, explain that you have done them on a different character (even if it isn't true). If you are a complete wuss without an ounce of social skills and can't convince them of any of the previous things, just link some random character (who has done all of msv) and claim that it's yours. Damn, that was hard. Doesn't work the first time? Try again.

If you're in a max level guild, and you want to jump to (say) a level 6 guild for some old Normals, you lose a tonne of passives from the guild levels, access to guild items due to guild level, and all of your guild rep which you'll need to regrind out for the old heirlooms or pets should you want them.

Pretty much every single guild doing any type of raiding (including normal mode) is level 25, so you lose nothing. Hell, even if said guild was low level you don't lose anything you can't manage without for a short while (none of the passives are particularly important for a 90, just handy, hierlooms and pets are obviously completely irrelevant). As I stated, you haven't even tried, it's just more convenient to cry about how hard it is.

[Tapzer]

With 10/25 sharing lockouts and same loot, and with 75% of the game filled with casuals 10 mans have grown. 25 man takes to long to organize for people who only raid 2-3 days a week. I personally have went to 10 man and only raiding 2 days a week 3 hours a night. and to be honest, its starting to burn me out. Raiding just isn't the same. Doesn't have that epic feeling it used too.

[Firebert]

As I stated, you haven't even tried, it's just more convenient to cry about how hard it is.

You can't possibly know if I've tried or not. I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying if I hadn't tried.

Sorry, but that's just how things roll on WoW now.

[grimsanta]

For all of you people who say that 10 man is more intimate for the reason that you know them better, I know my 25 man group just as well as any 10 man group I've been a part of. Raid with the same group for 6 months, and it's 25 people, you get to know them all just fine.

[Deleted]

Running 25man guild is a lot of effort, it is hardly done by people that are still in school,since you need mature leaders and it is time consuming as hell. With that being said, it is the main reason why the 10 man guilds are way more popular, as you do not need much of a management to organize 10 ppl. As for difficulty it is the same, but sometimes the lack of class presense makes the fights harder for 10 mans, as they do not have the same amount of tools to handle all abilities bosses have.
And i know it may sound stupid but a valid reason is the fact that 25 man raids require a decent pc to run a raid smooth, so that comes into play as well.

[Sevyvia]

25man = In a state of perma-recruiting, more players to manage and thus more drama, more people missing raids, more money on repairs etc.

With LFR out, the pool of recruits has dwindled. Not just the baddies have gone to LFR for all their raiding, a lot of decent players have stopped regular raiding after they realised that they can see all the content whenever they want to, now, and don't have to suffer the 5-10 person clique being carried in every 25man guild bar the top25 in the world or whatever. This means that just getting a 25man started is difficult, and if you do, it's probably going to be full of baddies that will mean you -could- drop down to 10man and in the span of 2 weeks, with your 10 best players, be much further in progression than you are in 25man.

The exclusivity of lockouts, LFR and changing moods of WoW's players simply make 25mans less feasible than they were previously. When 25man was the only option for serious raiding (TBC), obviously there were tons of 25man raiders. The game was also much more set up with raiding in mind. It was what you did at max level. Now, you don't necessarily have to. You can just log in and fuck around a bit with pet battles, dailies or whatever. Raiding is not the "End Game" in the way it used to be.

[Deleted]

In my guild we do not recruit people for raids. We want to play together and if friends or others want to join, we check them for what persons they are, not what characters they play or how they play them. We want to raid together and we are simply not enough for a 25 man guild (or better said: the people are not available on the same days).

If everybody would be available on the same day, we would raid 25. But that's simply not the case. So instead we have 2x 10.

[Deleted]

As a Resto Druid, I started loving 10 mans back in WotLK, because I feel the healing is more varied there. In 25 mans I'd be mostly blanketing the raid with Rejuvs and WG, and rolling Lifebloom. In 10 mans I just feel I can contribute more. Some raidhealing here, some tankhealing there, this person took damage so I roll a HoT and I know it won't be overhealed, etc. I currently have no desire to go back to 25s, especially because by all reports Druids are the worst healers there currently, due to a lack of spells uncapped by targets, and an overall lack of utility.

[Applenazi]

Unfortunately you can't look like a promising player to anyone any more due to the Raiding Catch 22.

Cookie is completely right. After taking a 5 month break I was able to jump right into a top 100 US 25 man guild with an ilvl about 20 behind the actual raiders. Previously, now, and forever any guild that knows what they are doing looks at the outcome of investing in a recruit, not where the recruit is at the moment in time they submit their app. And thanks to LFR you don't even have to pug a raid to get logs, it has never been easier than it is right now to join a guild.

[Alandalus]

What? You need to spend a week gearing up to get a char up to the standard a guild raiding normal ToT should require

Could not disagree more. I think the very minimum an "average" raiding guild (6-9/12 Normal Mode) will accept for a new recruit for ToT is 490, though they would probably prefer 496ish. Anyone above that, from what I have seen looking at apps, wowprogress etc wants you even higher (500 or so). Finding anyone that will take less than that would be very difficult. Not impossible, but unlikely. Getting 490 in a week would be no easy task. Assuming you get extremely lucky in LFR you'll still only be 480ish, and will need to do all the normals and get equally lucky with drops that week to hit anywhere close to 490.

[Terridon]

While i enjoyed the only 40mans raid, that were organized and full of nice people, i do find it a lot easier to find 9 other nice players(in terms of personality), than 24.

When i were a dps i did enjoy to do a significant part of the damage in 10mans. Of course there's something great about competing against many on dps too, but it felt like you personally contributed more to each kill.

The thunderforged gear might make people a bit more interested in 25man, since each boss drops 1-2 pieces on 25-mans, while you get it on each fifth kill in 10mans (on average).
The ilvl-difference isn't major, but i guess all of us prefer thunderforged over normal :P

[Deleted]

Could not disagree more. I think the very minimum an "average" raiding guild (6-9/12 Normal Mode) will accept for a new recruit for ToT is 490, though they would probably prefer 496ish. Anyone above that, from what I have seen looking at apps, wowprogress etc wants you even higher (500 or so). Finding anyone that will take less than that would be very difficult. Not impossible, but unlikely. Getting 490 in a week would be no easy task. Assuming you get extremely lucky in LFR you'll still only be 480ish, and will need to do all the normals and get equally lucky with drops that week to hit anywhere close to 490.

We accepted a recruit with 489 last week, we're a relatively casual guild but we have at least cleared normal and downed jin'rokh on hc. I imagine that most guilds doing heroics will demand a bit more than 490, but that's exactly what most guilds progressing in normal on my server have as a requirement (some even less). This is also during progress, which is the time where most guilds have by far the highest gear requirements, once content is on farm a guild won't really care about your gear when recruiting you.

You don't need to be exceptionally lucky to get to 490 in a week, to quote myself from another thread:

You can easily get to 470 doing msv lfr+pugging it (if you act a bit convincing joining a msv pug with below 470 ilvl isn't difficult). With 470 you get into hof+terrace lfr which easily gets you to 475+, you can then pug hof and terrace and you are at 480, tot lfr. That combined with sha, galleon, oonadasta (these 3 will obviously help the previous steps too) and jin'rokh (pugging the first tot boss is a complete joke) will get you to (or close to) 490. As an added bonus you'll also be able to pick up a 522 piece from valor after at most a week. This isn't an exaggeration or something you need amazing rng/luck to achive, with the 10% nerfs, increased drop rates and close to unlimited coins (the key run will yield you ~15 charms even if you are poorly geared) it's simply normal. This is with me entirely excluding reps, bmah and crafting which can get you there even quicker.