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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Sil View Post
    I'm sorry but did the world first 25man already happen? No I believe it did not.
    This boss died first by hands the of Paragon in the world, that makes it a world first not a world first 10 man.
    Since they did it in 10 man raid size, it is a 10 man world first. As there'll be a 25 man world first, when the boss dies. Stop comparing 10 man to 25 man, especially Lei Shen is harder on 25 man, because of the limited space you've to spread out.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Xingu View Post
    Choice or no choice, they are still hypocrites, stop making excuses for them.
    I won't even try to convince anyone that 10 man raiding matters more or as much as 25 man equivalent because there is no simple answer but could you please point out the hypocrisy to me? In what way has Paragon as a guild been hypocritical? There has been a few official statements about individual encounters in the past but being a smart guy you probably know that those were indeed about specific encounters, they were quite long time ago when Blizzard was still learning their new philosophy where 10 and 25 man are considered equal and... no, even if Paragon as a guild would have totally bashed 10 man accomplishments in the past (which it did not), it still wouldn't make it hypocrisy to switch raid size.

    Edit: It is however a bit funny for people to call either difficulty easier when 8 guilds have even seen the boss on one raid size (2 in 10 man, 6 in 25) and grand total of 0 has reached it with both raid sizes.
    Last edited by Daewyn; 2013-03-25 at 09:23 AM.

  3. #103
    Field Marshal
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    Congrats on the world first, you guys are the best

  4. #104
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Since they did it in 10 man raid size, it is a 10 man world first. As there'll be a 25 man world first, when the boss dies. Stop comparing 10 man to 25 man, especially Lei Shen is harder on 25 man, because of the limited space you've to spread out.
    How do you know if Lei Shen is harder on 25man? Have you done heroic 10 man Lei Shen? Have you done heroic 25 man Lei Shen? You would need to have both to make those accusations, and my wild guess is you've done neither.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  5. #105
    10 and 25 are not the same game, everyone agrees.
    Therefore, why call a world first ?

    It's like saying LA Lakers got 2013 first ball in a net, whether it be football, tennis, basketball.

    It's 10 man. I'm not trying to devalue their kill, but it's world first 10 man. Not world first. There is no point reporting a world first since we are all in agreance the two difficulties are different games.

  6. #106
    Which part of "World First" do you guys not get it. There is only ONE World First. The differences between 10man and 25man balance each other out. If it is truly easy as you guys claim it be on 10man, why do we not see you guys pulling it off? Why do we not see other top 10man guilds do it?

  7. #107
    Stood in the Fire rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FixDestruNow View Post
    Nobody cares it´s only 10-man.

    What I would really like to know is who killed it first on LFR?

    so the fact that if they had enough players in the roster to keep raiding 25 man, they would have got the 25 man world first, and probably still could if none of the others get him before next reset, so do us all a favour, you and all others like you, take your close minded egocentric BS out of here, and go do some more LFR cos lets face it, that's all the raiding u will ever see in this game.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    How do you know if Lei Shen is harder on 25man? Have you done heroic 10 man Lei Shen? Have you done heroic 25 man Lei Shen? You would need to have both to make those accusations, and my wild guess is you've done neither.
    He probably didn't even do Lei Shen normal to claim that lol, less space to spread out.... The fight is mostly about stacking up or spreading out not to avoid things but to soak things, it's so much easier when you have more people to do it.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    10 and 25 are not the same game, everyone agrees.
    Therefore, why call a world first ?

    It's like saying LA Lakers got 2013 first ball in a net, whether it be football, tennis, basketball.

    It's 10 man. I'm not trying to devalue their kill, but it's world first 10 man. Not world first. There is no point reporting a world first since we are all in agreance the two difficulties are different games.
    Do the sports you mentioned share the same rules? No I thought so... Are they in the same league? No I thought so.... Are both 10 man and 25 in the same league/game? Yes they are, do they both share the same rules when it comes to bosses abilities and such scaled to their own raid size? Why yes they are! Your argument is invalid (lol trying to compare tennis and football in the same sense has brightened up my day!)

  10. #110
    I don't understand how people can argue against this being world first. The definition of a world first is to achieve something for the first time worldwide. Paragon did this. They killed Lei Shen for the first time ever on heroic mode. Meaning they got an overall world first (first time Lei Shen died on heroic ever) and world first 10 man. The world first 25man is obviously up for grabs. But you can't deny that Paragon is the guild who first defeated Lei Shen on heroic difficulty in the world, regardless of the fact that he might be harder or easier in 10 man compared to 25 man (a discussion I wont be getting into).

    The first man ever to travel faster than 100 kmph would be considered a world first, regardless how he did it. I'm not going to go and look up facts, but let's assume he did this by using a car. A few years later a guy comes around and achieves the same thing but using a bicycle. This doesn't mean that the first guys world first is invalid just because it was easier, it means the second guy would have achieved world first +100 kmph with a bicycle. Same thing can be applied here. Paragon got world first Lei Shen HC.

  11. #111
    This is a endless argument that will never be solved, mainly due to trolls or self entitle raiders from one side of the argument or the other. Frankly who ever gets the kill first gets the gold and no amount of trolling or raging on forums will take away from the fact that Paragon did this first regardless of raid size. Nuff Said
    Last edited by Bigvizz; 2013-03-25 at 12:44 PM.

  12. #112
    I think people discounting Paragon's world first Lei Shen kill are hilarious, considering the fact that other than handling the logistics of a 25 man, 10 man raiding is more difficult in every other aspect. And this is coming from someone who's raided both extensively.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    10 and 25 are not the same game, everyone agrees.
    Therefore, why call a world first ?

    It's like saying LA Lakers got 2013 first ball in a net, whether it be football, tennis, basketball.

    It's 10 man. I'm not trying to devalue their kill, but it's world first 10 man. Not world first. There is no point reporting a world first since we are all in agreance the two difficulties are different games.
    Everyone agrees that the races are separate.
    Everyone should agree that Paragon kill is a world first because they are the first to kill Lei Shen, and that's not something you can argue about.
    And while Paragon are probably not caring about 25m progress, because they are on a different race, I'm pretty sure being the first in the world to kill him feels pretty damn good.
    Same goes for 25m guilds: 10m progress doesn't count much for them, but knowing they lost the chance of being the first to see Ra-Den will make their first kill a bit less epic.

  14. #114
    Grats to Paragon on world first! Make us proud!

  15. #115
    [QUOTE=Darkguyver2020;20615729]10 man heroic kills = f**k not given. 25 heroic modes take more coordination. Bosses have three times more health and they're generally more interesting to watch. 10 man guilds shouldn't even be competitive when it comes to world firsts.
    So, yeah. Grats to Dream Paragon for killing Lei Shen. But I'll just wait for the real raiding guilds to kill him.[/QUOTE


    This is the Worst statement ever 25mans are stupid eazy compaired to 10 mans you can carry a few fuck ups and baddies in a 25 man raid even on heroic all 10 people in a 10 man have to be skilled and not compleat fuck ups and still pull the high dmg you see in the 25 mans yes the boss's may have more health but there are 15 extra people to do the dmg that needs to be done to say that Dream Paragon is not a real raiding guild is compleatly retarded obviously you have never raided in a hardcore 10 man progression group nor a 25 man

  16. #116
    TLDR: Paragon World First Lei Shen Heroic


    There shouldn't even be any type of argument. World first is exactly what it means, The first in the World to do it. You can't have two World firsts, otherwise, it wouldn't really be World 1st..

    Paragon has World 1st Heroic Lei Shen kill.

    Yeah, you can categorize it in different ways, but in generality, the real World First respect goes to Paragon.

    Just like Skall was saying. It can be different variations, but it all gets drawn back to the same thing. Like, say someone was the World First person to solve a Rubix cube, and he did it in 5 minutes. Then someone comes along and solves it, Being World 2nd to solve the Rubix cube, but he did it under 5 minutes. So technically he's World First to solve the Rubix cube in under 5 minutes. But the first guy is STILL the World First person to solve a rubix cube and the 2nd guy is World 2nd to solve it.

    So yeah, whoever kills Lei Shen on 25 heroic first will have World First Lei shen, but it will be World First Lei Shen on 25H.

    So, if you enjoy categorizing so much. Paragon has:
    World First Lei Shen Heroic
    World First Heroic Lei Shen 10 Man Heroic.

    25 man guild(assuming they kill it world 2nd):
    World Second Heroic Lei Shen.
    World First Heroic Lei Shen 25 man Heroic.

    Yes, i agree. They are two totally different races. But I'm pretty sure even the people participating in the races will agree that a World First IS a World First. No matter the size.
    Last edited by Galilei; 2013-03-25 at 10:38 AM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Andaja View Post
    Wonder why even mmo-champ site posts this nonsense of world first when there is still one boss left.
    Because it's the first of this boss, it doesn't say "first full throne of thunder clear" or anything.


    Anyway guys I've raiding 10man HC Lei Shen and 25man HC Lei Shen extensively this tier and can objectively say 10man is harder
    n.b. satire

  18. #118
    Grunt Khronoz's Avatar
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    gz paragon ... europe > america > rest of the world !

  19. #119
    Still excited to see the world first 25 kill

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 11:30 AM ----------

    I think you people have a hard time telling the difference between 10 and 25 because it has the same name for the bosses..but in reality they are two different encounters... There are two different world firsts because you can't compare 10 and 25 fights with each other

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Since they did it in 10 man raid size, it is a 10 man world first. As there'll be a 25 man world first, when the boss dies. Stop comparing 10 man to 25 man, especially Lei Shen is harder on 25 man, because of the limited space you've to spread out.
    Sorry but for me and a lot of other the race ended, you live in your own world.
    10 person raiding is also less forgiving and tuned more tightly.
    Let's take this into the extreme and expand a little.
    Imagine a 1 man raid and a 1000 man raid.
    It's easy to balance something for a 1 man raid but the death of that person means its over.
    It's difficult to balance something for 1000 man raid so probably it will be more forgiving.
    And it is.. because you'll be perfectly fine to be able to down that boss also with 990 men.
    Therefor, 10 man also has its arguments to be "harder" than 25 man.

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