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  1. #1

    Atonment healing + Boss Dmg debuffs

    Is there any logical reason why atonement dps/healing should be affected by boss Increased Dmg Taken affects? If atonement (and fistweaving) are comptative on normal healing fights, and do 50%+ More healiing on some fights where a boss takes more damage, that creates a barrier to other healing classes.

    Really interested on a valid justification. Blizz in my opinion should have atonement and fistweaving not be affected by those sort of boss debuffs.

  2. #2
    Well the logic is there (which was your first question). Abilities the heal based on how much damage they do should heal for more if the damage is in some way increased. Sounds pretty logical, no?

    The rest is just your opinion.

  3. #3
    I agree completely. On many fights it's already a huge gain to have a healer able to deal a fair bit of dps while healing and if they in addition to this simply do more healing than another healing class (=fights with damage buffs) there's no real disadvantage. Nerf atonement/fistweaving to the ground, or at least to the point where it's healing is significantly below normal/alternative spells (meaning that you trade healing for damage if you decide to use them). This is coming from me as a disc.

  4. #4
    It's felt broken since Halfus. Atonement is in a pretty good spot without +dmg debuffs, probably even too good.

  5. #5
    yeah right, nerf fistweaving to the ground!

    oh wait...


    on topic, damage taken increased/reduced effects shouldnt affect the healing value for attonement/fistweaving. This way it wouldnt be such a big advantage to have a disc in fights like horridon and if a boss has a damage taken reduced buff attonement would be still viable, only the damage part would change.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I agree completely. On many fights it's already a huge gain to have a healer able to deal a fair bit of dps while healing and if they in addition to this simply do more healing than another healing class (=fights with damage buffs) there's no real disadvantage. Nerf atonement/fistweaving to the ground, or at least to the point where it's healing is significantly below normal/alternative spells (meaning that you trade healing for damage if you decide to use them). This is coming from me as a disc.
    Agree! I do think dps-healing is more of a Monk thing though myself, ofc if you dps you should do less healing in return, or it wont fit in the real frames of bossencounters. For sure, remove the dmg debuffs on bosses making both dps and healing skyrocket via Atonment, or simply remove Atonment benefiting from such abilities.

  7. #7
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Purely increasing the mana cost of ie smite would be sufficient to a certain extent really.
    Right now atonement heals for quite a lot whilst being really mana efficient, if you negated the mana efficiency you'd be left with a smartheal dealing damage on the cost of being mana inefficient from a pure healing PoV.

    In other words you'd get to choose being either mana efficient through not using smite thus reducing the dps numbers a disc brings, or you'd sacrifice your mana for doing that extra bit of dps.

  8. #8
    Our healing outside of atonement has been significantly nerfed. Why would you then want further nerfs to us in the form of a higher mana cost to our spells for situational fights that reflect a small percentage of a tier? Sounds like a great way to gut us further.

    Its gimmicky. Whatever. Atonement already caps at a % of our health so why is this a huge issue?

  9. #9
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    I'm personally not desperate to nerf discs in any direction, obviously I'm happy to be able to nonstop cast something in a 25 raiding environment, however I found it slightly "unfair" at a point where it was possible for a disc with 15 odd less ilevels than rest of the healers to do nearly as much dmg as a tank, top healing and end a fight with ~50% mana (which in itself is bad playing from my pov as couldve facerolled meters higher I spose).

    That said equally as there are fights where atonement is really strong, there are fights such as Lei Shen where atonement is useless half the fight (during transitions) where the actual healing requirements are higher than during rest of the fight. On the odd tries where you don't get the chance of shielding your group before the 300k+ Statics it's rather enjoyable trying to heal up said group alone seeing as our "raw straight heals" are less than impressive due to the DA gimmicks.

    You get some you lose some.

  10. #10
    Spazzeh - Logical reasoning is different than logical outcome, but I wouldn't expect you to know that since either way your response was asinine and useless.

    To build on topic: I am ok with atonement healing being as good as it is prior to the boss increases or being substantially nerfed and then slightly better than regular healing on Horridon style fights.

    Don't get me wrong. I main a resto druid and have an alt Disc at 490 ilvl. I am also the healing leader for my 25 man and had to threaten to kick a disc priest from our group when he equaled me in healing for Horridon. Disc, even after recent nerfs, is very strong, and their utility + dps puts non shielding healers at an extreme disadvantage already. There is no need to compound the problem by having a disc priest do 95k HPS on horridon while dooing similar dps, vs other classes doing around 55k.

    Blizz has dropped the ball on this. It is hard enough to justify bringing a druid or shammy to raids. If I weren't a group leader in my group I would be tempted to bring another disc priest in my spot that can do substantial dps & outheal everyone except maybe a pally.

  11. #11
    Why is this such a concern? For fights where Disc gains an increased healing output there are also fights such as Tsu'long where, due no long lasting adds to regain mana or evangelism from in the night phase and with the requirement of boss healing only to have a noticeable amount of healing translated to a useless shield, Disc performs comparatively much poorer.

    I get the feeling that many of the people calling out for the removal of Atonement or a nerf don't like that play style. That's fine, the spec (despite how long you may have played it for) is no longer for you. Personally, I enjoy the Atonement style of play and if it were to be removed Disc would only end up being as fun as it was in ICC.
    Last edited by Aimee Antimony; 2013-03-25 at 04:17 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    Our healing outside of atonement has been significantly nerfed. Why would you then want further nerfs to us in the form of a higher mana cost to our spells for situational fights that reflect a small percentage of a tier? Sounds like a great way to gut us further.

    Its gimmicky. Whatever. Atonement already caps at a % of our health so why is this a huge issue?
    I'd like to see atonement nerfs and buffs to our other spells, actually making them usable. Right now there's very little reason for a disc to ever think about target selection, which is something that used to (and, imo, should) be a significant part of healing. There's already several fight designs that heavily favors/punishes some healing specs, dps healing is taking that a bit too far imo (the advantage of having one or two "dps healers" on some fights is just massive).

    I get the feeling that many of the people calling out for the removal of Atonement or a nerf don't like that play style. That's fine, the spec (despite how long you may have played it for) is no longer for you. Personally, I enjoy the Atonement style of play and if it were to be removed Disc would only end up being as fun as it was in ICC.
    There's already numerous specs for players who just want to perform a rotation while targetting the boss (all the dps specs), I don't see why we have to make disc join that group as well when it's a unique and interesting spec without this.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-03-25 at 04:21 PM.

  13. #13
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you not find you still target people based on the relevance of how your SS will be maxed (Aoe Advice equivilents) / Shielding people according to situational needs?

    It's true atonement is a brilliant "filler" that negates a big part of having to select people for smartheals, but a big chunk of our healing (at least mine) still comes from SS and shielding, all requiring some sort of brain usage around targeting.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I'd like to see atonement nerfs and buffs to our other spells, actually making them usable. Right now there's very little reason for a disc to ever think about target selection, which is something that used to (and, imo, should) be a significant part of healing.
    This might be due to item level or progression differences but, personally, I am finding myself doing target selection pretty often - normally with the intent to PW:S, PoM or, as horrible as it may seem, actually cast Flash Heal, Greater Heal and even Penance directly. And relying on Cascade and PoH (SS or not) rather often. Not that there is anything all that superior about "target" healing. Maintaining a well timed DPS rotation is debatably more challenging than targeting someone and casting GH at the right time or mousing over a different name plate and casting your HoT or Shield of choice every GCD.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 04:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenaru View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you not find you still target people based on the relevance of how your SS will be maxed (Aoe Advice equivilents) / Shielding people according to situational needs?

    It's true atonement is a brilliant "filler" that negates a big part of having to select people for smartheals, but a big chunk of our healing (at least mine) still comes from SS and shielding, all requiring some sort of brain usage around targeting.
    I don't think you are wrong. When learning the encounters for the first couple of pulls (and still being new to the class) I have wasted DA PoH and SS PoH at times and really suffered for it in terms of my output. Atonement smart healing is nice - in the same way that Wild Growth or Healing Rain or CoH smart healing is nice.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenaru View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you not find you still target people based on the relevance of how your SS will be maxed (Aoe Advice equivilents) / Shielding people according to situational needs?

    It's true atonement is a brilliant "filler" that negates a big part of having to select people for smartheals, but a big chunk of our healing (at least mine) still comes from SS and shielding, all requiring some sort of brain usage around targeting.
    Yes, we still have to make decisions regarding pw:s and SS, although it's practically impossible to screw up the SS targetting on most fights. I don't know what you consider a big chunk, but excluding niche fights pw:s+SS combined rarely is more than 20% of my healing, it's simply more beneficial for the raid if I keep dpsing as long as I can keep the raid up with that.

    -
    This might be due to item level or progression differences but, personally, I am finding myself doing target selection pretty often - normally with the intent to PW:S, PoM or, as horrible as it may seem, actually cast Flash Heal, Greater Heal and even Penance directly. And relying on Cascade and PoH (SS or not) rather often. Not that there is anything all that superior about "target" healing. Maintaining a well timed DPS rotation is debatably more challenging than targeting someone and casting GH at the right time or mousing over a different name plate and casting your HoT or Shield of choice every GCD.
    The impact of selecting the proper target for PoM is extremly insignificant, in 9/10 situations you can pop it on the tank and achive exactly the same result as if you used it on another player. Using flash heal, greater heal and defensive penance frequently means that you aren't playing disc to it's full potential, in most situations you can keep the raid up with offensive spells instead, while also adding damage to the boss. The impact of cascade targetting is also very small.

    Regarding a dps rotation potentially being more challenging than minimaxing your healing performance, I disagree entirely. When it comes to healing you usually have more spells to chose from, multiple targets to chose from and it demands greater adjustments from you while most dps follow roughly the same rotation regardless of the situation. You have more choices to make, and have to adapt more as a healer. That being said, even if you would consider executing a dps rotation to potentially be as challenging as healing, the disc "rotation" can hardly be considered anything but mindless.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-03-25 at 04:32 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    There's already numerous specs for players who just want to perform a rotation while targetting the boss (all the dps specs), I don't see why we have to make disc join that group as well when it's a unique and interesting spec without this.
    Discipline is enriched by the mechanic of knowing when to switch from Atonement DPS healing to more direct healing. That is a novel play style that isn't offered by other healers. Remove it and you not only lower one of the measures of how to judge if someone is playing well as a Discipline priest (knowing when to switch away from filler to a different style yet one that grants a higher HPS) but Disc becomes little more than a copy of another one of the healers that instead of healing shields things.

    I'm pretty certain this is what was attempted in ICC and that only led to the replacement of Druids as PW:S coverage was far superior to RG x 5 and WG.

  17. #17
    I agree I'd rather see our actual "healing" spells buffed in order to have Atonement take a hit. Unfortunately, Blizzard cannot seem to make up their minds. Obviously we were overpowered in 5.1 but I think the extent to which they nerfed our actual usage of "healing" spells was too much. Now, you see atonement spam instead of say...poh/spirit shell spam. Its just frustrating tbh.

  18. #18
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    As a comparison one might think LoD (aim + shoot)/ Renewing mist (pick a target + channel for 18seconds)/ Healing rain (cast once + profit) which all account to a lot of said classes healing (most of the time more than atonement in 25man normal modes) requires even less thought than atonement as well as said spells not requiring an actual hostile mob to cast on.

    Again, not particularly defending atonement as mentioned before, I just think people need to have a bit of perspective.

  19. #19
    No spamming smite and holy fire that then will pick which target to heal for you is not a "dps rotation" even if you weave penance into that. The next highest heals will be your Spirit Shell, typically with Prayer of Healing, which you just have to be conscious enough to target a different group each time you spam it.

    Disc priests are still VERY strong healers even without atonement healing. On somthing like tsulong, there are baddies all around for your to regen mana on. You just actually have to cast heals. Additionally you can be the raid/tank healer and your sheilds benefit from the buff you get from tsulong's breath. Which trivializes that portion.

    If you are a good disc that uses your full arsenal and knows when to flash heal or greater heal or penance or SS or smite. All power to you. That doesn't mean there should be multple boss fightes where not bringing a a disc priest is a substantial disadvantage. It would be like every fight requiring a monk to do its raid wide dispell + heal. It is bad enough that Horridon without a Monk (at least 25 man) is so much suckier thank with even 1 monk. (another argument for another forum)

  20. #20
    High Overlord Celar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    Our healing outside of atonement has been significantly nerfed. Why would you then want further nerfs to us in the form of a higher mana cost to our spells for situational fights that reflect a small percentage of a tier? Sounds like a great way to gut us further.

    Its gimmicky. Whatever. Atonement already caps at a % of our health so why is this a huge issue?
    That cap is BEFORE the damage (aka healing) increase effect takes place. I don't think it's right to touch their healing, but I do think they should reduce the damage by 50-75%, and buff Atonement healing to compensate (no changes to healing), so only their dps is nerfed.
    Last edited by Celar; 2013-03-25 at 04:36 PM.
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