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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Troll survival.
    The Darkspear can and will survive by being diplomatic and doing what's right. The Zandalari and every other troll empire thought survival meant slaughtering your enemies to appease your Gods and then slaughtering your Gods to steal their power when things got out of hand. They don't deserve to survive nor bring their baggage to Vol'jin and the Horde. He knows better, let the Zandalari sleep in the bed they made with the rest of the troll tribes.

  2. #402
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    And I think you are too lazy to look for the sources, lack common lore knowledge and aren't paying proper attention to the story.
    I did look, there's nothing to support your argument that the Zandalar want to enslave everybody and would never consider diplomacy ever, or see other races as lesser beings.

    Hell, we have a few Zandalar in the Cata ZG chain that work with the Horde And Alliance against the Zandalar backed-uprising of the Gurubashi, like Maywiki.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 03:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    The Darkspear can and will survive by being diplomatic and doing what's right. The Zandalari and every other troll empire thought survival meant slaughtering your enemies to appease your Gods and then slaughtering your Gods to steal their power when things got out of hand. They don't deserve to survive nor bring their baggage to Vol'jin and the Horde. He knows better, let the Zandalari sleep in the bed they made with the rest of the troll tribes.
    Which strikes me as dumb writing on blizz's part, you'd think some members of those other tribes would stop and go

    "Wait, attacking the world's two entrenched superpowers AT THE SAME TIME might be a bad idea" and be receptive to Vol'jin inviting them into the Horde, because frankly, he can't really -afford- to just leave them, they're the vast majority of his race, his tribe is small, and they could use the powerboost.

    I don't think it'd be 'crazy' for him to offer amnesty to anyone willing to join up, for to go to the other tribes and say

    "look, you don't have to murder everybody, why not try THIS instead"
    Twas brillig

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I did look, there's nothing to support your argument that the Zandalar want to enslave everybody and would never consider diplomacy ever, or see other races as lesser beings.

    Hell, we have a few Zandalar in the Cata ZG chain that work with the Horde And Alliance against the Zandalar backed-uprising of the Gurubashi, like Maywiki.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 03:56 PM ----------



    Which strikes me as dumb writing on blizz's part, you'd think some members of those other tribes would stop and go

    "Wait, attacking the world's two entrenched superpowers AT THE SAME TIME might be a bad idea" and be receptive to Vol'jin inviting them into the Horde, because frankly, he can't really -afford- to just leave them, they're the vast majority of his race, his tribe is small, and they could use the powerboost.

    I don't think it'd be 'crazy' for him to offer amnesty to anyone willing to join up, for to go to the other tribes and say

    "look, you don't have to murder everybody, why not try THIS instead"
    The zandalari offered a chance to reignite the troll empires of old, that was their goal. They were shooting for a greater glory than tagging along with the orcs and blood elves.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  4. #404
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    CAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllleeeeeeeedddddddd iiiiiiiiiiiiit 7th sha is pride. Boom.

    The lore this xpac is/has been pretty sick. I'm excited.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    CAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllleeeeeeeedddddddd iiiiiiiiiiiiit 7th sha is pride. Boom.

    The lore this xpac is/has been pretty sick. I'm excited.
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  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I did look, there's nothing to support your argument that the Zandalar want to enslave everybody and would never consider diplomacy ever, or see other races as lesser beings.

    Hell, we have a few Zandalar in the Cata ZG chain that work with the Horde And Alliance against the Zandalar backed-uprising of the Gurubashi, like Maywiki.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 03:56 PM ----------



    Which strikes me as dumb writing on blizz's part, you'd think some members of those other tribes would stop and go

    "Wait, attacking the world's two entrenched superpowers AT THE SAME TIME might be a bad idea" and be receptive to Vol'jin inviting them into the Horde, because frankly, he can't really -afford- to just leave them, they're the vast majority of his race, his tribe is small, and they could use the powerboost.

    I don't think it'd be 'crazy' for him to offer amnesty to anyone willing to join up, for to go to the other tribes and say

    "look, you don't have to murder everybody, why not try THIS instead"
    Yawn. Fine, I'll give you the sources, since you are now just rambling. First of all, we have the 4.1 trailer (source http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Sgqis-XrPj0) where Zul promises all the other tribes infinite power in return for their unquestioned loyalty. "From the wreckage of the Cataclysm, the Troll Empire shall rise again!" "But against the powers we'll soon unleash, none shall stand for long" - Here we have the fact that Zul never ever once considered diplomacy with any other race than his own - the trolls. They - and he - wants to reclaim the entire planet in the name of their ancestral world-spanning empire. It's worth noticing that even the other troll races are considered "lesser" by the Zandalari, obviously it then goes without saying what they then think of the non-troll races. (source http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Dark_Prophet_Zul)

    Then we have the fact that Zul knew that something would break the world apart (source http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Dark_Prophet_Zul), he had dreamt of the Cataclysm for years and continuted to warn Rastakhan, who didn't listen, but eventually gave Zul a ship just to be rid of him. This resulted in Zul's crusade (4.1-5.2+). And when Zul had rallied the Drakkari, Farakki, Gurubashi and Amani he set of for the ancient continent of Pandaria, which had just become visible again, to reuinite with their ancient Mogu allies to help ressurect the Thunder King, hoping that the Mogu would then share Pandaria with the Zandalari, now that Zandalar was sinking and under attack by Naga (source http://www.wowpedia.org/Zul)

    So yes, there is plenty of proof, and it wasn't exactly that well hidden - again I feel like I need to point out that you are either not paying attention or just plain lazy.

    Now, as for the idiocy of attacking the two super powers; While it might seem like a bad idea, attacking two super powers who are currently fighting *each other* can prove beneficial even if it was risky. And again, keep in mind that the Zandalari and Zul are desperate - VERY desperate. You don't go and ressurect one of the most dangerous and tyrannical beings on the planet if you aren't desperate.
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  7. #407
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    The zandalari offered a chance to reignite the troll empires of old, that was their goal. They were shooting for a greater glory than tagging along with the orcs and blood elves.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say with relation to what I said, I understand and AGREE with the Darkspear decision not to join up with the Zandalar, but they shoudl've acted as mediators so the Zandalar were only a problem for the Alliance

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 04:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Yawn.

    Fine, I'll give you the sources, since you are now just rambling. First of all, we have the 4.1 trailer (source http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Sgqis-XrPj0) where Zul promises all the other tribes infinite power in return for their unquestioned loyalty. "From the wreckage of the Cataclysm, the Troll Empire shall rise again!" "But against the powers we'll soon unleash, none shall stand for long" - Here we have the fact that Zul never ever once considered diplomacy with any other race than his own - the trolls. They - and he - wants to reclaim the entire planet in the name of their ancestral world-spanning empire. It's worth noticing that even the other troll races are considered "lesser" by the Zandalari, obviously it then goes without saying what they then think of the non-troll races. (source http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Dark_Prophet_Zul)

    Then we have the fact that Zul knew that something would break the world apart (source http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Dark_Prophet_Zul), he had dreamt of the Cataclysm for years and continuted to warn Rastakhan, who didn't listen, but eventually gave Zul a ship just to be rid of him. This resulted in Zul's crusade (4.1-5.2+). And when Zul had rallied the Drakkari, Farakki, Gurubashi and Amani he set of for the ancient continent of Pandaria, which had just become visible again, to reuinite with their ancient Mogu allies to help ressurect the Thunder King, hoping that the Mogu would then share Pandaria with the Zandalari, now that Zandalar was sinking and under attack by Naga (source http://www.wowpedia.org/Zul)

    So yes, there is plenty of proof, and it wasn't exactly that well hidden - again I feel like I need to point out that you are either not paying attention or just plain lazy.

    Now, as for the idiocy of attacking the two super powers; While it might seem like a bad idea, attacking two super powers who are currently fighting *each other* can prove beneficial even if it was risky. And again, keep in mind that the Zandalari and Zul are desperate - VERY desperate. You don't go and ressurect one of the most dangerous and tyrannical beings on the planet if you aren't desperate.
    1. Wow you're a bit condescending, I'd been trying to write it off as my imagination but really, what's your deal?

    2. Again opinion, it's largely theatrics, and half my issue is that this doesn't really make -sense- given their previous willingness to work with other races and acknowledgement that the violence of the other tribes was getting them wiped out.

    3. Again, you don't need to recite the lore to me, I know it.

    3. Proof of -what-? You're arguing that the Zandalar would NEVER be receptive to diplomacy under any circumstances, which them working with the mogu, does -not- prove. Look at the Zandalar journals, they're not 'oh man I so love murdering EVERYBODY" they're the writings of a refugee people.

    I'm saying Vol'jin should've tried diplomacy and the story would've been better for it, you're saying i'm not paying attention and I'm lazy (seriously what is WITH The insults? what'd I do to you besides disagree with you?), when I'm WELL AWARE of everything they've been doing, and all you've done is frame it in the context of 'well it didn't happen so it never COULD'VE!'

    I know all the same information I just think Blizz could've written what happened MUCH better and gone down a far more interesting road with the Zandalar than writing them as boring 'kill errybody!' villains.

    So explain to me WHY DO YOU THINK BLIZZ COULD NOT HAVE MADE THE ZANDALAR CONSIDER DIPLOMACY

    WHY WOULD IT HAVE BEEN SO IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO JOIN THE HORDE RATHER THAN HAVE BLIZZ WRITE THEM AS ENEMIES TO EVERYBODY?
    Twas brillig

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say with relation to what I said, I understand and AGREE with the Darkspear decision not to join up with the Zandalar, but they shoudl've acted as mediators so the Zandalar were only a problem for the Alliance
    Sigh - Zul brought war, he brought terror and conquest and dreams of a forgotten time. He had no intention of allying with anything that wasn't a troll. Again, watch the trailer, listen to his words, read the texts. It's not that hard.
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  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    You, me and 5 million other players.
    Yeah it was pretty obvious but I know a bunch of people that were like "nope."

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say with relation to what I said, I understand and AGREE with the Darkspear decision not to join up with the Zandalar, but they shoudl've acted as mediators so the Zandalar were only a problem for the Alliance

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 04:28 PM ----------



    1. Wow you're a bit condescending, I'd been trying to write it off as my imagination but really, what's your deal?

    2. Again opinion, it's largely theatrics, and half my issue is that this doesn't really make -sense- given their previous willingness to work with other races and acknowledgement that the violence of the other tribes was getting them wiped out.

    3. Again, you don't need to recite the lore to me, I know it.

    3. Proof of -what-? You're arguing that the Zandalar would NEVER be receptive to diplomacy under any circumstances, which them working with the mogu, does -not- prove. Look at the Zandalar journals, they're not 'oh man I so love murdering EVERYBODY" they're the writings of a refugee people.

    I'm saying Vol'jin should've tried diplomacy and the story would've been better for it, you're saying i'm not paying attention and I'm lazy (seriously what is WITH The insults? what'd I do to you besides disagree with you?), when I'm WELL AWARE of everything they've been doing, and all you've done is frame it in the context of 'well it didn't happen so it never COULD'VE!'

    I know all the same information I just think Blizz could've written what happened MUCH better and gone down a far more interesting road with the Zandalar than writing them as boring 'kill errybody!' villains.

    So explain to me WHY DO YOU THINK BLIZZ COULD NOT HAVE MADE THE ZANDALAR CONSIDER DIPLOMACY

    WHY WOULD IT HAVE BEEN SO IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO JOIN THE HORDE RATHER THAN HAVE BLIZZ WRITE THEM AS ENEMIES TO EVERYBODY?
    Why do I think that Blizzard could not have made the Zandalar consider diplomacy? That's easy -because they didn't want to. They wanted to create yet another enemy for us to fight, it's that simple. And for the 5th or 6th time - Zul is not a diplomat, he's a desperate sage who wants his people (the zandalari and lesser trolls) to survive, he wants to reclaim the troll empire - an empire which crushed and enslaved every non-troll being who crossed their path - until the Night Elves squashed them.

    And working with the Mogu has squat to do with diplomacy. Zul stumbled across Pandaria mostly by accident, recalled the ancient prophecy and saw this as an opportunity. The Mogu does not see the Zandalari as equals, they see them as pawns and cannonfodder, but the Zandalari accepts this -because it's their only current hope for survival.

    Vol'jin didn't try diplomacy as he COULD CLEARLY SEE THAT IT WAS NEVER AN OPTION SINCE ZUL HAD JUST PROMISED THE OTHER TRIBES TO KILL ANY OTHER STANDING IN THEIR WAY.

    Urgh I'm out of here, you are utterly incapable of understanding something as simple as this - Madgod was right about you - off to ignore you go!
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  11. #411
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Sigh - Zul brought war, he brought terror and conquest and dreams of a forgotten time. He had no intention of allying with anything that wasn't a troll. Again, watch the trailer, listen to his words, read the texts. It's not that hard.
    You didn't link the trailer you linked the Zandalar prophecy.

    And part of my point is Vol'jin should've said 'that's not a good idea, try X instead'.
    Twas brillig

  12. #412
    The Zandalari plan is to unite the troll races and ally themselves with the Mogu. The darkspear were always treated like crap under the rule of the other trolls. Besides, the choice given to Vol'jin was to leave the horde and turn against them or die with them. The zandalari want to destroy the horde, pure and simple. Why? Maybe this Zul fellow isn't so nice. That part of the story will be revealed later down the road.

  13. #413
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Why do I think that Blizzard could not have made the Zandalar consider diplomacy? That's easy -because they didn't want to. They wanted to create yet another enemy for us to fight, it's that simple.

    And for the 5th or 6th time - Zul is not a diplomat, he's a desperate sage who wants his people (the zandalari and lesser trolls) to survive, he wants to reclaim the troll empire - an empire which crushed and enslaved every non-troll being who crossed their path - until the Night Elves squashed them.

    And working with the Mogu has squat to do with diplomacy. Zul stumbled across Pandaria mostly by accident, recalled the ancient prophecy and saw this as an opportunity. The Mogu does not see the Zandalari as equals, they see them as pawns and cannonfodder, but the Zandalari accepts this -because it's their only current hope for survival.

    Vol'jin didn't try diplomacy as he COULD CLEARLY SEE THAT IT WAS NEVER AN OPTION SINCE ZUL HAD JUST PROMISED THE OTHER TRIBES TO KILL ANY OTHER STANDING IN THEIR WAY.

    Urgh I'm out of here, you are utterly incapable of understanding something as simple as this - Madgod was right about you - off to ignore you go!

    1. I'm arguing this was a less interesting option than diplomacy, and a poor decision on Blizz's part.

    2. Desperation ought to make people MORE open to change, not less, and MORE interested in peace, not less. His actions don't make sense when you take EVERYTHING ELSE we know about the Zandalar into context.

    3. Which is why they're fighting, not because they see other races as inferior and want to enslave them like the Mogu do.

    4. Vol'jin could point out that just EXISTING is not standing in their way, and hell, he doesn't even have to talk to Zul, he could talk to pretty much any troll leader in the great big coalition they've got.

    5. Wow, because I have a difference of opinion you're putting me on ignore? Weird.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    The Zandalari plan is to unite the troll races and ally themselves with the Mogu.
    The darkspear were always treated like crap under the rule of the other trolls.

    Besides, the choice given to Vol'jin was to leave the horde and turn against them or die with them. The zandalari want to destroy the horde, pure and simple. Why? Maybe this Zul fellow isn't so nice. That part of the story will be revealed later down the road.
    1. I'm aware of this yes. I was aware before anyone here told me, I don't need it repeated to me over and over.

    2. I'm not saying the Darkspear should have joined the Zandalar for -expressly- that reason.

    3. Actually the Zandalar don't want to destroy the Horde they want a homeland, which is why they're invading pandaria with the Mogu, they want holdings along the coast, they have no real 'beef' with the Horde which is why I suggested Vol'jin should've tried talking them into an alliance agaisnt the well, Alliance, to get their land back in EK.
    Twas brillig

  14. #414
    The zandalari have no real beef with the Alliance either. They just want them all dead or enslaved, same as the horde because of the visions of the prophet.

  15. #415
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    The zandalari have no real beef with the Alliance either. They just want them all dead or enslaved, same as the horde because of the visions of the prophet.
    Where is this "Dead or enslaved" bit coming from?
    Twas brillig

  16. #416
    I am Murloc! Valyrian Stormclaw's Avatar
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    I think that there will be a part like the Angrathar the Wrathgate scene from WotLK where Varian, Vol'jin, and Baine will besiege Orgimmar's front door, edmanding the return of Thrall, then Garrosh comes out and tosses Thrall's head to the heroes; certainly would make for a more dramatic story.

    Lastly, I think Garrosh will be a two stage fight, where in the first stage he's almost normal (not really Sha infected), then when he's defeated he absorbs power additional power from the 7th Sha, becoming stronger, regaining all his HP, and starting the second fight. After that, he would completely merge with the Sha of Pride, becoming WoW frist billion health super boss.

    Also, what if Garrosh not only absorbed the 7th Sha, but used his dark powers to control/corrupt/infect another good hero (Anduin? Wrathion?) and use him to help gain more power (would also be a raid boss), would also make things more dramatic.

    Would be nice to see Thunder Bluff become new Horse hub.

  17. #417
    Stood in the Fire Malkazam's Avatar
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    I'm gonna call it right know.

    Sha of pride = Thrall or Jaina !

    Thrall did go alone in Orgrimmar.. He have pride about himself and is hord.

    or

    At the end when Garrosh is defeated. Jaina will try to take the city. Why ? A weak Orgrimmar without warchief is an easy target. She won't miss this opportunity of revenge.
    Last edited by Malkazam; 2013-03-27 at 01:48 AM.
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  18. #418
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    That would prompt the Alliance to out Varian and in Anduin as leader because of Lo'gosh's dishonor (he agreed to help the Horde retake their home, not conquer it).

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkazam View Post
    I'm gonna call it right know.

    Sha of pride = Thrall or Jaina !

    Thrall did go alone in Orgrimmar.. He have pride about himself and is hord.

    or

    At the end when Garrosh is defeated. Jaina will try to take the city. Why ? A weak Orgrimmar without warchief is an easy target. She won't miss this opportunity of revenge.
    She... she did miss the opportunity. Lol.
    The Sha of Pride is going to corrupt Garrosh, if it hasn't already.

    Also not really sure if the Alliance wants to be seen as the faction who kicked another faction while it was down. They would already have defeated their enemy (Garrosh started the war with them in the first place, I doubt the rebels will care much about fighting the Alliance for no real reason.)

  20. #420
    I am Murloc! Valyrian Stormclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    She... she did miss the opportunity. Lol.
    The Sha of Pride is going to corrupt Garrosh, if it hasn't already.

    Also not really sure if the Alliance wants to be seen as the faction who kicked another faction while it was down. They would already have defeated their enemy (Garrosh started the war with them in the first place, I doubt the rebels will care much about fighting the Alliance for no real reason.)
    And considering how the Burning Legion will return to Azeroth, it would only make sense that they make preparations for their invasion (though occasional skirmishes will still continue)

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