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  1. #221
    GoSac is really a poor fix for poor pet mechanics.
    I agree that it being viable to the point of us going petless is simply wrong.
    Really I feel that it should be a temporary buff, rather than a persistent one.
    Make the sacrifice be some dps or utility boost for a short duration.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    GoSac is really a poor fix for poor pet mechanics.
    I agree that it being viable to the point of us going petless is simply wrong.
    Really I feel that it should be a temporary buff, rather than a persistent one.
    Make the sacrifice be some dps or utility boost for a short duration.
    It's a poor fix, but it's the only fix that they can do without changing pets at an implementation level.

    Temporarily buffing damage by saccing a pet is a decent idea in concept, but terrible when it actually gets translated to gameplay.
    What do you do once the buff is over? Hardcast a pet for 4 seconds? Does the pet auto-summon? If so, how is this any different than a simple CD like service?

    Also, if the intended purpose of Sac is to fix poor pet mechanics then a temporary buff is useless unless the CD happens to coincide with when the problem happens. Is it a fight like Aly where being in the air means your pet can't do any damage for the vast majority of the fight? If so a CD version of Sac is better than nothing, but it's still bad and means warlocks are just bad on the fight, which goes against the policy of "Bring the player, and not the class"


    Personally, I don't see warlocks as a pet class. I think it can be debated on whether Demo is a pet spec or not. Pets don't feel like a part of Destro, nor do they feel like a part of Affliction. That's not even to mention that Affliction/Destro is as complicated or even more complicated without a pet, than many specs in this game are by themselves.

    I don't see any reason why sacrificing your demon to empower yourself is any less "warlocky" than having a pet help you. If anything I feel like summoning a pet and then immediately killing it for my personal benefit is incredibly warlocky. It makes me feel like their master rather than a companion (like a hunter).

  3. #223
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Temporarily buffing damage by saccing a pet is a decent idea in concept, but terrible when it actually gets translated to gameplay.
    What do you do once the buff is over? Hardcast a pet for 4 seconds? Does the pet auto-summon? If so, how is this any different than a simple CD like service?
    Personally, I always imagined (if they are going to change it to a CD) that they'd make the entire tier into an expy of the Druid T60: Passive, 1min CD and 3min CD, with the damage scaled to compensate for cooldown time. Pet would be auto-summoned again (like being ressed in a BG gy).

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    Personally, I always imagined (if they are going to change it to a CD) that they'd make the entire tier into an expy of the Druid T60: Passive, 1min CD and 3min CD, with the damage scaled to compensate for cooldown time. Pet would be auto-summoned again (like being ressed in a BG gy).
    They tried this in beta mop, it was really clunky. Besides this is what I never got, how does this fit more with blizzards warlocks are a pet class ideology? Just because a pet is being sacrificed on a cd more often it makes us somehow more a pet class than if it happens once and is a passive buff? Ok, what if the pet was out for awhile.. then you used your cd and gained x amount of damage for 30sec, how would that fix poorly designed pet encounters? Would your pet dangle uselessly on a fight like alysrazor but it would be ok cuz you could sac it for a dps cd every once in awhile?

    Maybe i'm biased? I tend to agree with brusalk that sacrificing a pet sounds pretty warlockish to me, I don't see why blizz couldn't have learned from the experience that a lot of people decided not to roll with pets because pet ai is poorly designed on their part and having things like devour when felhunter would benefit from more dots on a target or improved soul fire procs from imp where actually interesting? On the other side of that a locks even when sac was really strong were perfectly ok with keeping out a felguard instead of sac and loving it.

    Another thought Kanrethad seemed to be a demo lock with no one specific personal pet, I really wish our gateway was like his and not used to travel but keep summoning stronger demons that attacked.

  5. #225
    The other thing I never hear mentioned is how does a warlock going petless (so long as its balanced) interfere with other classes ability to enjoy the game whatsoever? The amount of non warlock irrational hate directed towards the idea of locks going petless is staggering. It probably has more to do with most other classes enjoying locks having problems or issues since they have had the last two expacs of us being buff bots more than equal performers (eg hspine). Its not like locks suddenly jump up 10-15% in damage for killing their pet.

    I'm completely in agreement with Brusalk...killing a pet to make you stronger is about as warlocky as it gets. The class's slogan could be "power at any cost" which fits the optional petless move well. Historically locks have been petless (or functionally so via shifted imp) in the past and usually to great community enjoyment. Did Kanathred come out with a pet? No, he just summoned them as a disposeable resource against you. Do you see all the lore warlocks not able to cross the street without a pet?

    The other aspect of these people that bleat on and on about how locks are a petclass miss is we really only want to go petless in raids and rbgs. RBGs pets flat out don't live more than 10 seconds in any major firefight. What pve encounter would be acceptable killing pets as frequently? Blizz is also fond of reminding us that raids, esp hardcore ones, are a tiny minority. Thus there is logic for being petless in a raid/rbg isn't petless when you examine the wider scope of the game. You might raid 3 hours in a night but early this expansion how many hours did you have to devote to dailys? Farming? Questing?

    The logic of locks as a petclass is just as flawed as locks as a dot class. I mean in terms of multidotting spreist, boomer, unholy (rofl), and even mages after the recent change all multi dot pretty hard. Demo is now more about its nukes than its dots with the pet being optional. Destro has almost nothing to do with dots and is all about its nukes (in theme especially). Thus the concept of rigid historical behavior being absolute for future evolution doesn't work either. Its pretty fair to say destro is a nuke spec of a dot class. Why can't locks have a petless option within a "pet class"?

    A temporary buff from killing the pet is terrible. We tried this on the MoP beta and it was terrible. Pretty much any future implementation is going to be just as terrible since the amount of time it would take to make it not suck could be used to make pets work better or better balance sac specs. The most we are likely to see would be a sac that approximated service in terms of a 20'ish second buff that gave you more pressure. It still does nothing to resolve the core issues of pets vs encounters and nothing for pvp.

  6. #226
    Personally, I loved Sac Demo on the PTR. Every two minutes you could pop Dark Soul, Sacrifice, and resummon your pet right before Demonic Rebirth fell off. It felt extremely powerful and probably was, but I enjoyed the rotation mainly because I was so accustomed to the crazy pet twisting and Meta snap-shotting we'd been doing.

  7. #227
    warlocks have always been misinterpreted as a petclass, it has never really been one tbh. the option to sac a demon has been there from the start, only having been removed in an expan or 2. ive always seen warlocks as ppl that would exploit their demon in anyway possible to gain extra power, and having the option feels very warlocky to me. demons arent companion pets like pets are with the hunters which is why we dont get to have a talent tree for our demon, if they really want to make warlocks into a true pet class they would really need to make our demons more customizable through talent trees and give us more options for demons like they do with hunters. GoSac in its current form should be available to locks and it makes sense if it is.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Personally, I loved Sac Demo on the PTR. Every two minutes you could pop Dark Soul, Sacrifice, and resummon your pet right before Demonic Rebirth fell off. It felt extremely powerful and probably was, but I enjoyed the rotation mainly because I was so accustomed to the crazy pet twisting and Meta snap-shotting we'd been doing.
    Not so much that it was powerful, but going back to the Cataclysm model of needless pet/buff juggling. Resummoning pets is really an odd mechanic to introduce into a rotation even when it seems interesting at first glance, but I'm not sure how many people really loved felhunter/felguard swapping every 2 minutes mid fight.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvii View Post
    Not so much that it was powerful, but going back to the Cataclysm model of needless pet/buff juggling. Resummoning pets is really an odd mechanic to introduce into a rotation even when it seems interesting at first glance, but I'm not sure how many people really loved felhunter/felguard swapping every 2 minutes mid fight.
    I hated it so much that I switched from Demo even though it was my favourite spec otherwise. I simply couldn't stand having to do that crap.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvii View Post
    Not so much that it was powerful, but going back to the Cataclysm model of needless pet/buff juggling. Resummoning pets is really an odd mechanic to introduce into a rotation even when it seems interesting at first glance, but I'm not sure how many people really loved felhunter/felguard swapping every 2 minutes mid fight.
    I completely loved it.

  11. #231
    TBH Sac is very well balanced - it is viable (or optimal, depending on spec, gear and mechanics maybe) on single target, and quickly becomes less useful with more targets. So it's not overpowered, it simply is a good choice in some situations and slightly worse in others - like any well-designed talent should be. I completely don't get why there's so many people seemingly *offended* by the very fact that Sac is viable in *any* situation whatsoever, and would prefer to see it nerfed into uselessness, or only see any use on gimmick fights where pets despawn.

  12. #232
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    Well. The PvP Power nerf sure isn't lovely for Affliction.

  13. #233
    I'd have to disagree with you there. I saw this more as a buff to affliction. With the ~15 - 20% nerf to the amount of damage power gives. It hits all the smaller numbers affliction throws around less and hits all the huge numbers everyone else is throwing around more. Also, I went and started stacking more mastery vs. Power/Mastery I was doing before and it seems to be working favorably for us. With burst toned down somewhat, sustainable damage will hopefully become more worth it to bring to teams.

  14. #234
    GoSac is there for one reason only.
    Pets spending too damn long running while switching between targets.
    If the downtime of the pet could be reduced, then GoSac would imo not be needed.

    Something not unlike the felguard sprint.

  15. #235
    I guess their fix is to let Hunter pets teleport, while lock pets either run around or get sacrificed for lower dps.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    GoSac is there for one reason only.
    Pets spending too damn long running while switching between targets.
    if only there was a pet standing still and just casting firebolts w/o wasting time on travels between targets...oh wait

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalkiden View Post
    I'd have to disagree with you there. I saw this more as a buff to affliction. With the ~15 - 20% nerf to the amount of damage power gives. It hits all the smaller numbers affliction throws around less and hits all the huge numbers everyone else is throwing around more. Also, I went and started stacking more mastery vs. Power/Mastery I was doing before and it seems to be working favorably for us. With burst toned down somewhat, sustainable damage will hopefully become more worth it to bring to teams.
    If Affliction was viable with only dots ticking, I'd agree. But considering the spec is still dependant on the warlock channelling an easily-interruptable spell, it'll most likely still lower the damage by enough to make it felt.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesftw View Post
    if only there was a pet standing still and just casting firebolts w/o wasting time on travels between targets...oh wait
    And that is why on fights with sufficient target switching the imp is superior for dps.
    It does have an impact.

  19. #239
    Problem with Imp doing exactly same as melee pets is that it will always be chosen over them. Especially because his skill set is vastly superior in pve to others, selfhealing + aoe dispell. The goal was to make locks take whatever pet they like or depending on skills they provide, this would make Imp goto pet for both Destro and Affli, making it even worse than it's been before (I still miss shadowbiting felpuppy and insta-soulfire proccing imp).

  20. #240
    I use 3 pets and GoSac at various points during my week of playing. I'd say they've got things nicely balanced at the moment and have no reason to make balance changes or remove GoSac. If you look at the fact this is all brand new tech they've put in and have been trying to get balanced between the specs (and between classes) I think taking 1 tier to see what we do with it and how to tune the numbers better is no problem. I see no reason to complain about GoSac anymore and no reason to change or remove Grimoires next expansion either.
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