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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan30 View Post
    With them reducing the buff costs to near zero, makes you wonder why they dont just make them passive. I'm really tired of asking the mage to cast crit buff .
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    NONONONONONONONO!

    Buffs are ALWAYS better than auras. You can outrange Auras, but buffs are always on you.
    They certainly aren't when you're purged, whereas aura can never be dispelled, which is arguably the reason everything hasn't gone passive - it may be fine in pve, but in pvp it'd cause some ramifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Yeah, I never really saw the attraction to it, changing specs is easy enough, but I'll take it. I'll use it to make a Demo spec I'm still not going to use much cause I'm not gemmed/reforged for it.
    It's certainly a nicer alternative to spend the handful of seconds it takes to respec over hearthing, trudging to your class trainer, paying them some gold and then potentially having to deal with re-sorting your bars.

    That said, I'm in a similar boat - I've lost my love of demo after it became meta focused instead of pet focused, that and the conflicting stat priorities will mean my 3rd spec is just demo and collecting dust, but I wasn't in love with it during Catas MWC pet swapping BS days, still played it when the fight required it, so who knows.

  2. #42
    If you ever tried GoSac Demo in PvP you'd never go back. Sacrificing your pet for 30% increased damage when going for burst kills has been detrimental to specs viability after the huge Chaos Wave nerf IMO. Without it you just don't have the proper burst to kill people in the current PvP climate. Now they're nerfing that too. When will it stop?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonized View Post
    If you ever tried GoSac Demo in PvP you'd never go back. Sacrificing your pet for 30% increased damage when going for burst kills has been detrimental to specs viability after the huge Chaos Wave nerf IMO. Without it you just don't have the proper burst to kill people in the current PvP climate. Now they're nerfing that too. When will it stop?
    Well there is the slight caveat that GC said that he didn't know of any balance changes allready present in the new build, and that anything found was most likely either tooltip correction or datamining error. I'll keep the changes in the OP till we have some kind of confirmation if either of these things happened.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 05:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Well there is the slight caveat that GC said that he didn't know of any balance changes allready present in the new build, and that anything found was most likely either tooltip correction or datamining error. I'll keep the changes in the OP till we have some kind of confirmation if either of these things happened.
    Seems like the change is NOT in the official patch notes for now. Made a note in the OP. No idea if it's tooltip correction or Datamine error though.
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  4. #44
    Where are you guys seeing a FnB change?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan30 View Post
    Where are you guys seeing a FnB change?
    Just a datamining blimp that meant nothing. Those happen all the time when the first results are on the frontpage, unfiltered.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    That said, I'm in a similar boat - I've lost my love of demo after it became meta focused instead of pet focused,

    You lost your love for Demo in 2008?

    Not that anyone ever really used Felguard in BC because of it's terrible scaling problems and the fact all of Demonology was a few damage modifiers and zero new abilities. There was a reason people only half-specced Demo in BC, mostly because you needed Ruin to be viable in raids.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I've lost my love of demo after it became meta focused instead of pet focused,
    I'm the exact opposite, I've lost my excitement for demo when they decided to make GoSac terrible for it and forced it to use a pet. They even confirm in the green fire quest that there are two aspects to Demonology: controlling demons, and turning yourself into one. I've left the class before because of the forced reliance on pets and the ridiculous rotations involved. Any more nerfs to GoSac and I think I might consider leaving again.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvii View Post
    You lost your love for Demo in 2008?
    I lost interest with it when Cata rolled around - it's gradually progressed from there to a complete disliking for it when MWC / Pet swapping was made mandatory in DS and how things play in MOP, destro being a viable OS contributes to it too. I raided mostly as affliction since Gruuls lair (where I finally decided to learn how to play), but I remember enjoying demo as my out of raid spec and used it to some decent effect in ICC.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackvii View Post
    Not that anyone ever really used Felguard in BC because of it's terrible scaling problems and the fact all of Demonology was a few damage modifiers and zero new abilities. There was a reason people only half-specced Demo in BC, mostly because you needed Ruin to be viable in raids.
    I remember having great fun and decent results with a felguard in Karazhan, though I had no idea what I was doing and was in a casual guild at the time, so the competition was hardly stellar. I do remember the felguard feeling ridiculously strong when it was first added though, I have fond memories of it soloing adds in TBC 5mans and heroics.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodravn View Post
    I'm the exact opposite, I've lost my excitement for demo when they decided to make GoSac terrible for it and forced it to use a pet. They even confirm in the green fire quest that there are two aspects to Demonology: controlling demons, and turning yourself into one. I've left the class before because of the forced reliance on pets and the ridiculous rotations involved. Any more nerfs to GoSac and I think I might consider leaving again.
    Eh, you're as entitled to your opinion as I am mine, I expect to be in the minority with my dislike of meta and I can understand peoples hatred of pets, though I generally stand by Warlocks being a pet class and, if you dislike them, it's a case of lump it or leave it - I don't think pets should be completely removed from the equation any more than they should be for hunters etc.

  9. #49
    Given blizzards nerfing of sac with the stated intent of making pets optimal for pve I kind of feel like they should redesign the talent into something pvp oriented. Perhaps we could lose all the damage bonuses from sac and instead sac one demon to obtain all it's abilities for ourselves while retaining the ability to summon a different pet. Keep the HPS benefit and let me sac hound for spell lock and devour then summon succy for knockback and charm.

  10. #50
    Hope the are buffing SoC, After the corr nerf it really went down hill compared to other 2 specs.

  11. #51
    I hope they don't turn GoSac into a cooldown, GoSac was one of the main reasons I came back to my lock >_<

  12. #52
    I wish they would remember the reason it was conceived of in the first place. When A.I. gets wonky because my pet doesn't like the pattern in the floor or I have to fly around chasing the boss and my pet de-spawns. We really don't need another CD. We needed an option for when pets are useless.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    I wish they would remember the reason it was conceived of in the first place. When A.I. gets wonky because my pet doesn't like the pattern in the floor or I have to fly around chasing the boss and my pet de-spawns. We really don't need another CD. We needed an option for when pets are useless.
    If they really only want to make it a situational thing instead of a playstyle choice, then it should be nerfed further and made a baseline ability. If they don't like it because it doesn't fit their grand vision for warlocks, then it shouldn't be a talent (and they can't nerf it much further without making it non-competitive with Sup and Serv), but if they can't figure out pets then they can't scrap it altogether either.

    As for what they'd replace it with, I'd imagine a talent that would give a warlock a type of passive empowerment or an active skill depending on which pet is active.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kipling View Post
    I hope they don't turn GoSac into a cooldown, GoSac was one of the main reasons I came back to my lock >_<
    I hope they do, it just makes sense that way. Then it would no longer compete with Supremacy and would stop this "warlocks without pets" mentality.

    Of course it may then start competing with Service for burst, but they could just nerf the Service minion's damage, reduce the cooldown and make Service a utility cooldown thing.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I hope they do, it just makes sense that way. Then it would no longer compete with Supremacy and would stop this "warlocks without pets" mentality.

    Of course it may then start competing with Service for burst, but they could just nerf the Service minion's damage, reduce the cooldown and make Service a utility cooldown thing.
    No.. giving it a cooldown would just effectively make it another Service. You want the talents to all be equally competitive with each other ideally, but you also want them to remain distinctive.

  16. #56
    well there are way too many problems with pets for them to remove it or changing it, netherspark and warlocks have never been a pure pet class like hunters, as according to lore, locks dont look at demons as their pets but rather as tools to be used and the fact that locks have had demonic sacrifice from the very begining, so sacrificing them makes as much sense as anything else. the only real time where removing GoSac is even an option is if they ever fix the problems there are with pets and even then they cant really remove it completely, as it would fit extremely well into the lore and such as a dps cooldown similar to dark soul.

  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    No.. giving it a cooldown would just effectively make it another Service. You want the talents to all be equally competitive with each other ideally, but you also want them to remain distinctive.
    Technically, they could make it like the Druid T60 talents: Passive, 3min CD, 1min CD. It'd make it distinctive while keeping it balanced because they've already done it before. I'd argue that Service should be the 1min and Sac the 3min if they decide to go that route because it makes the most sense to me.

    Also, like I said before, Sacrifice as a cooldown would only work if it automatically ressurects your demon when the time ends, and in PvP terms I could see Sac or Sup becoming more used as neither needs you to give up a GCD of the bonus for the utility.
    Last edited by Queen Ultima; 2013-04-08 at 10:36 PM.

  18. #58
    Also, like I said before, Sacrifice as a cooldown would only work if it automatically ressurects your demon when the time ends, and in PvP terms I could see Sac or Sup becoming more used as neither needs you to give up a GCD of the bonus for the utility.
    Yes yes yes! This is all that needs to happen. With Sac in its current iteration gone for good, we can leave the petless lock discussion behind for good. The tech is there for instant pet summons, each spec has it (Demonic Rebirth, Meta summon, Flames of Xoroth, Soulburn: Summon). What I believe (personal opinion here) they should do is make it like Flames of Xoroth, instant summon of your last pet, but obviously not incur the resource cost.

    The problem with the late beta Sac design was that the buff was strong at first and got weaker very fast, forcing you to resummon your pet often. Then on launch it was increased to a flat 20min buff, later increased to an hour because resummoning every 20min was still too much, plus the CD was reduced if you were dying often in BGs or something. But if instant resummon was used, this wouldn't be a problem anymore. Not sure about how hard it would be to code it in, but with instant summon being a thing, I would imagine it could be done.

    I also like Ultima's idea of mirroring the Druid L60 tier, passive-short CD-long CD.

  19. #59
    Sac should stay as it is, it's very competitive at later tier with high ilvl.
    Unfortunately, i fear that any changes they do it's gonna make it worse.. GC clearly don't like locks being petless, since he believes we are a pet class (altough every warlock in the game are gonna say we just USE them as we WISH, not bound to them, quite the oposite). At least we have a good option, just not good enough as it used to be. Still better on fights that pets sucks.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvii View Post
    You lost your love for Demo in 2008?

    Not that anyone ever really used Felguard in BC because of it's terrible scaling problems and the fact all of Demonology was a few damage modifiers and zero new abilities. There was a reason people only half-specced Demo in BC, mostly because you needed Ruin to be viable in raids.
    Ruin was a destro talent to increase your crit damage...

    I think you mean demo sac, so they could sac their succ and get an increase in shadow damage. I find it funny about Blizz telling player who whined about the Grim of Sac nerf saying that "warlocks are a pet class, the sac hasn't been around long enough for you guys to get used to it" despite half of vanilla and a good chunk of TBC locks could run around petless, and for TBC petless was the way you had to go, and plenty of people rolled locks for that gameplay. I remember going demo for MC back in vanilla for the resis buff, I remember using demo for the sac health buff from the VW for farming, because in the old days we didn't have soul harvest to give us health for free. All we had back then was first aid and food.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

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