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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    I used SimC to evaluate your claim that the ratio should be 0.88. I concluded that in 3 of the 4 cases, your suggested values performed BETTER! I didn't use it to prove we were right, I used it to evaluate the stat weights. I said we're going to evaluate this over a larger range of gear cases before we update the values, but it's leaning in the direction you suggested!!
    Pretty cool that this thread will lead to perhaps an update, even initiated by Darkfriend and how Zoopercat picks it up
    Thanks both for that matter, well done.

    Darkfriend's opinion is brought a bit (too) strong and perhaps not looking at the whole picture, but if you read between his lines and skip some others, it aint that bad. like when he says "I'm going to advise against it's use if a person really wants to min/max."
    For a large group (at least my warrior p.o.v.) AMR will do the job fine enough to be not that far of. The real top top (and i envy their knowledge) might do slightly better and is perhaps also needed in their guilds to beat HC modes asap.
    Last edited by Noctus78; 2013-04-08 at 10:52 PM.
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  2. #82
    Pit Lord Tzalix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Anyone who is decent enough to know how to use simcraft doesn't need to use AMR anyway, not only because they are good enough to NOT need AMR to say which gems to use, but for reforging because wowreforge is much better.

    And any tool that requires more knowledge to use than work it saves is simply not worth using.

    AMR is a bad site. And my advice is to take MY advice over any that AMR gives- I have a proven record whereas AMR is known for being bad.
    Wowreforge is incredibly slow on being updated and lacks many features that AMR has.
    The world is full of evil and lies and pain and death, and you can't hide from it... You can only face it. The question is, when you do, how do you respond? Who do you become?

  3. #83
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    Wowreforge is incredibly slow on being updated and lacks many features that AMR has.
    I know, which is why it's only real use is to perfectly optimize.

  4. #84
    Pit Lord Tzalix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    I know, which is why it's only real use is to perfectly optimize.
    How exactly is the optimizing done by wowreforge better than the optimizing done by AMR?
    The world is full of evil and lies and pain and death, and you can't hide from it... You can only face it. The question is, when you do, how do you respond? Who do you become?

  5. #85
    High Overlord The Jabberwock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend
    And any tool that requires more knowledge to use than work it saves is simply not worth using.
    And what special knowledge does askmrrobot require? The ability to type in your character name, server, and hit "optimize?" Maybe hit "export" if you want the data for any of the reforge addons rather than just doing it manually, too? Yeah, that's advanced stuff right there!

    Some of you people are truly delusional.

  6. #86
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    And what special knowledge does askmrrobot require? The ability to type in your character name, server, and hit "optimize?" Maybe hit "export" if you want the data for any of the reforge addons rather than just doing it manually, too? Yeah, that's advanced stuff right there!

    Some of you people are truly delusional.
    Because it doesn't do that well in its current state.

    I love when bad warriors try and give advice. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1285086-Pve-Raiding happens.

  7. #87
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    I love when bad warriors try and give advice.
    Good thing I'm not a bad Warrior.
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  8. #88
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Good thing I'm not a bad Warrior.
    Sinnermighty and recke as well as myself seem to disagree. Oh and esoterick. o.0

  9. #89
    High Overlord The Jabberwock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Because it doesn't do that well in its current state.
    Oh right, because referring back to my earlier post, your personal math skills are clearly far superior to those of a computer. So elite, you are! Because, you know, that's really all askmrrobot does; basic math. I mean, even if you were to alter your stat weights (which is impossible given the complexity of askmrrobot's site; see below) to whatever values you preferred, it would still screw it up! Somehow! Because it's just a horrible site, and your giant brain is far too advanced to even consider using such a thing.

    And it just makes it that much easier to snub your nose at it because, as you and you alone can testity, askmrrobot is a tragically difficult site to use. What, with its bewildering request to type in character names and choose a server. And that "optimize" button? Oh man, what does "optimize" even mean? Should someone push it, or will it cause the world to explode if they take their cursor anywhere near it?! Ughhhh! Why did they have to make it so hard to use! So much knowledge is required. Why, God, why?! Goodness, it's nice to know that your hyper intellect doesn't need such a tool, because if you were as stupid as everyone else on the planet must be, you'd never have a chance of figuring that stuff out. Phew!

  10. #90
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Oh right, because referring back to my earlier post, your personal math skills are clearly far superior to those of a computer. So elite, you are! Because, you know, that's really all askmrrobot does; basic math. I mean, even if you were to alter your stat weights (which is impossible given the complexity of askmrrobot's site; see below) to whatever values you preferred, it would still screw it up! Somehow! Because it's just a horrible site, and your giant brain is far too advanced to even consider using such a thing.

    And it just makes it that much easier to snub your nose at it because, as you and you alone can testity, askmrrobot is a tragically difficult site to use. What, with its bewildering request to type in character names and choose a server. And that "optimize" button? Oh man, what does "optimize" even mean? Should someone push it, or will it cause the world to explode if they take their cursor anywhere near it?! Ughhhh! Why did they have to make it so hard to use! So much knowledge is required. Why, God, why?! Goodness, it's nice to know that your hyper intellect doesn't need such a tool, because if you were as stupid as everyone else on the planet must be, you'd never have a chance of figuring that stuff out. Phew!
    Basically, because I'm better than the devs at Askmrrobot, at least as far as warriors and Dks go, and can achieve better results by NOT using their tool.

    And if you read (and since you're an idiot you probably didn't) you'd know that I don't use "optimize" because, well, it doesn't optimize. It leads to a DECREASE in DPS.

  11. #91
    I don't prefer it much these days, but that's mostly because I'm a brewmaster tank and I'm kinda obsessive about my stats being exactly the way I want them to be.

    I do think askmrrobot is a good site. If you're skilled and knowledgeable enough at the game to be able to point out its flaws for yourself, and why they matter, then you're also skilled and knowledgeable enough to make the tools still work for you and be at least somewhat useful, and make up any shortcomings you find elsewhere, with other tools, in which case complaining about how "bad" AMR is seems kinda silly. (Even if I don't use it, I still like checking it to see what it says.)

  12. #92
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    *anti-Darkfriend post*
    Just put him on ignore. He's very stuck in his ways and likes flaming people.
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  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Just put him on ignore. He's very stuck in his ways and likes flaming people.
    Read the siggy. I just hate stupid.

  14. #94
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
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    No not really. I checked it to see how it works and it keeps asking me to go below hit and expertise cap

    Use it for guidance but don't follow it 100%. For example, for frost 2h it wants me to go full haste gems, yet that's not really optimal for all the fights in ToT. So again, it's a good reference, but you can't just always follow it.

  15. #95
    High Overlord The Jabberwock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    No not really. I checked it to see how it works and it keeps asking me to go below hit and expertise cap

    Use it for guidance but don't follow it 100%. For example, for frost 2h it wants me to go full haste gems, yet that's not really optimal for all the fights in ToT. So again, it's a good reference, but you can't just always follow it.
    And this would be your ignorance getting in the way of getting the results you want. (Hint: There's an option to force it to hit the caps on the nose or go higher if it can't.) This seems to be the problem people like you, Darkwhoever, and other naysayers have. It's just too hard to use! /wrist!

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Oh right, because referring back to my earlier post, your personal math skills are clearly far superior to those of a computer.
    Not a computer, an algorithm.
    Fact is that even with optimal stat weights, AMR won't give you optimal reforges.
    So, yeah, you can outskill the maths done by AMR. Actually, that's what WowReforge does.

  17. #97
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    No not really. I checked it to see how it works and it keeps asking me to go below hit and expertise cap
    You can check a box in the options to force Exp and Hit caps.
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  18. #98
    Pit Lord Tzalix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Not a computer, an algorithm.
    Fact is that even with optimal stat weights, AMR won't give you optimal reforges.
    So, yeah, you can outskill the maths done by AMR. Actually, that's what WowReforge does.
    Could you provide actual proof of this? I've heard this before, that wowreforge uses better algorithms, but I never hear any details.

    Instead of anectodal evidence consisting of "AMR gave me this one bad result one time and wowreforge didn't", please show me the actual difference in the algorithms. I'm a total math-nut, so hit me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Basically, because I'm better than the devs at Askmrrobot, at least as far as warriors and Dks go, and can achieve better results by NOT using their tool.

    And if you read (and since you're an idiot you probably didn't) you'd know that I don't use "optimize" because, well, it doesn't optimize. It leads to a DECREASE in DPS.
    AMR's optimization has certainly never decreased my DPS. Since you're so pro at this, could you please explain exactly why wowreforge does better than AMR?
    Last edited by Tzalix; 2013-04-09 at 03:27 AM.
    The world is full of evil and lies and pain and death, and you can't hide from it... You can only face it. The question is, when you do, how do you respond? Who do you become?

  19. #99
    I prefer it, but if you disagree with it, or want to customize your own weights and stuff, try reforgelite

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    Could you provide actual proof of this? I've heard this before, that wowreforge uses better algorithms, but I never hear any details.

    Instead of anectodal evidence consisting of "AMR gave me this one bad result one time and wowreforge didn't", please show me the actual difference in the algorithms. I'm a total math-nut, so hit me!
    I've not looked at the algorithms, it's just an empirical statement.
    I guess the explanation may come from the fact that AMR seeks a local extremum while WowReforge looks at all the extrema (explaining why it also provides severals reforge strategies quite differents but with similar results.)
    But I may be wrong on this explanation.

    Anyway, even the AMR staff aknowledges that WowReforge is more accurate as far as reforge are concerned. One of the reasons for this is that AMR is not only focused on reforges but also gems and enchants, which makes the computation far more complex. WowReforge only looks at reforges and still take more time to compute a result.

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