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  1. #61
    The Lightbringer Sky High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I'm surprised we haven't seen her sooner. Although I admit I found her actions in MoP somewhat odd. She goes after Gandling and the Cult because she hates necromancers and their actions. Yet we haven't seen her go after Sylvanas at all yet. The person who had her risen from the dead should be her #1 priority, but it isn't.
    well.. who knows first she took it out on those that she loved but betrayed her and let her become an undead. then she goes against the classic enemy the scourge. so who knows she might very well be on Voss' list, lets hope she finds Silvanis' sex dungeon and frees Kolrita.

  2. #62
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I see how the usual suspects come in here and derail this topic, so please stop doing that if you're not actually interested in discussing the linked article.
    It's not an article, it's a blog.
    And it brings nothing new to the discussion, it's just a rehash of every other "Forsaken are evil"-thread.

    You could have gone to one of your other dozen threads, post "So one of the Forsaken have a mindslave." and people wouldn't mind.
    You don't need almost 4k words about that!
    Or should we accept that "Sylvanas's goals were the same as Putress's" as a fact because he writes a lot of words?
    Do you think that "Sylvanas has now taken on the role of the Lich King" suddenly is true because it's in a blog?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Have you actually read the article?
    It are basically the arguments you use in every single thread, but in a story-telling way.
    Putting 3600 words around it doesn't make the argument any more valid.

    And no, at first I did not read it.
    Because I HATE threads who paste a link and are like "^^^THIS ^^^", most of the time they bring nothing new.
    Guess what, I read it and I was right.


    tl;dr
    Just because it's in a blog, doesn't mean it's true.
    Most blogs are just excuses to write 5 pages about an argument that could also be written within 5 lines.

  3. #63
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    There is raising, and then there is raising. Maybe she sees raising with free will as lesser evil.

    And what chance would she have against entire faction. Remnants of the scourge are much weaker target.
    It's also possible that Lillian has even some respect for Sylvanas; she is the resposable of "freeing" her from the scarlet crusade. So even if she comes to the conclusion that Sylvanas has to be taken out, I think she'd had the deference to leave her for last, a small token of appreciation.

  4. #64
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    The thing is that there has been no confirmation of it being the case. Being Undead does not automatically mean they will go to this "void" when they die. If people can't factually say that's what happens then it's people just making stuff up.
    We're also aware that the Light has not abandoned them. But that they have been corrupted in a manner that makes them physically vulnerable to it. This combined with the fact many abandoned it as a deity as they felt it had abandoned them as a people when Arthas showed up is why many shun it, not because it shuns them.
    Yeah, it just doesn't make any real sense to me that Sylvanas would enter that place of suffering for eternity, and the Forsaken wouldn't. It would give the Forsaken one more reason to "survive". The whole thing about the Holy Light as I understand it, is that originally it said that the light had forsaken them. For a long time people believed that that means they can't use the Holy Light, and the holy priests ingame were just seen in terms of game mechanics. Then someone said "they can use the light, but it hurts them".

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I'm surprised we haven't seen her sooner. Although I admit I found her actions in MoP somewhat odd. She goes after Gandling and the Cult because she hates necromancers and their actions. Yet we haven't seen her go after Sylvanas at all yet. The person who had her risen from the dead should be her #1 priority, but it isn't.
    Maybe it takes a lot more for her to actually be able to take down Sylvanas. Maybe she'll try to assassinate those remaining Val'kyrs first.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-03-26 at 10:21 AM.
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  5. #65
    Sylvanas might seem like shes just postponing her suffering, but essentially she knows she has to lead her people or she will meet her end if she gives up.

    overall, the forsaken arent that cruel. when you create an undead toon you learn that the forsaken do have a choice.. they can go on existing with undeath or they can kill themselves.. they can do whatever they want as long as it doesnt go against the Forsaken..

    everyone is given a choice.. they arent being held hostage or against their will anymore.. and who can say the monstrosities of war are beneath any race? orcs have easily caused just as much bloodshed and suffering as well as humans only with different methods.. cruelty exists everywhere... the forsaken just use different means like plaguing areas and using poisons.. they have no physical strength so they rely on brains and alchemy to assault their foes (supposably). the methods they use may be questionable.. but they are effective..

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    she is the resposable of "freeing" her from the scarlet crusade.
    How so? The only way I can think of is awfully forced, so I think I might be missing something.

  7. #67
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iscalio View Post
    How so? The only way I can think of is awfully forced, so I think I might be missing something.
    Lillian was a part of the Scarlet Crusade, the most bigoted and self righteous human group in azeroth; capable to kill humans at the slightest suspision of infection. Her resurrection within the forsaken allowed her to see the false path she had been following, and she vowed to exterminate the Scarlet Crusade.

    So beyond what her other feelings for Sylvanas are, she did give her the chance to fullfill this mission, and I think that's important for Lillian

  8. #68
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    There is raising, and then there is raising. Maybe she sees raising with free will as lesser evil.
    Key word being "maybe".
    So far her dialogue has shown that she simply dislikes the thought of undeath and hates those who curse others with it - "I will not let you curse another soul with this nightmare."

    She hates her Undeath. This we all know. So much so that she goes after Gandling to stop the spread of Undeath. Yet so far she doesn't give a hoot about the person who afflicted her with it? I find that unbelievable.
    I think the problem is that she was well received by players and I get the feeling that many players would be upset with having a character they like trying to kill their leader.

    If anything Voss may be the key to holding Sylvanas accountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    And what chance would she have against entire faction. Remnants of the scourge are much weaker target.
    That type of thing hasn't stopped her so far. Not to mention how named characters like her in Warcraft have a habit of being able to solo damn near anything.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-03-26 at 10:39 AM.

  9. #69
    My forsaken is a power hungry warlock. She will join arms with whichever leader enables her to pursue and wield that power. Sylvanas is a great leader to have if you're one of the more evil oriënted classes.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Lillian was a part of the Scarlet Crusade, the most bigoted and self righteous human group in azeroth; capable to kill humans at the slightest suspision of infection. Her resurrection within the forsaken allowed her to see the false path she had been following, and she vowed to exterminate the Scarlet Crusade.

    So beyond what her other feelings for Sylvanas are, she did give her the chance to fullfill this mission, and I think that's important for Lillian
    Lillian only hates her old allies now because they abandoned her when she became undead. I have seen no evidence that she has "seen the false path she has been following", as in actual remorse regarding the sins of the Scarlet Crusade. She just suddenly found herself at the receiving end of Scarlet cruelty and didn't like it. If she hadn't died, there would have been no need to "rescue" her, as she was perfectly content with serving her fanatical order. That just proves that she is a hypcrite: Supporting a zero tolerance policy when it suits her without accepting the same policy when it affects her negatively (as in her father disowning her undead self and trying to have her killed).
    Also, the Forsaken did not raise her to free her - and intent matters. The Forsaken made her one of them just because they could, and Sylvannas personally didn't even know of Lillian's existence. She was just one more newly raised mindless servant among all the others. I don't see how that can realistically evoke gratitude.

    Lillian was trained to be a vengeful killing machine and remained just that after death. She just includes her previous allies in her prey selection now. She was a sociopath before death, now she is also a psychopath.

  11. #71
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iscalio View Post
    Lillian only hates her old allies now because they abandoned her when she became undead. I have seen no evidence that she has "seen the false path she has been following", as in actual remorse regarding the sins of the Scarlet Crusade. She just suddenly found herself at the receiving end of Scarlet cruelty and didn't like it. If she hadn't died, there would have been no need to "rescue" her, as she was perfectly content with serving her fanatical order. That just proves that she is a hypcrite: Supporting a zero tolerance policy when it suits her without accepting the same policy when it affects her negatively (as in her father disowning her undead self and trying to have her killed).
    Also, the Forsaken did not raise her to free her - and intent matters. The Forsaken made her one of them just because they could, and Sylvannas personally didn't even know of Lillian's existence. She was just one more newly raised mindless servant among all the others. I don't see how that can realistically evoke gratitude.

    Lillian was trained to be a vengeful killing machine and remained just that after death. She just includes her previous allies in her prey selection now. She was a sociopath before death, now she is also a psychopath.
    Your interpretation would make Lilian awfully simplistic, and I prefer to believe there's a pathos to her actions: and her appearance in the Scarlet halls support this. Even though revenge is one of the motivations, she clearly states that she sees the Crusade has becoming irredeemable evil and in need to be destroyed. To this end, she seeks the aid of adventurers.

    Now, you are free to believe that she is lying about that.

    The "freedom" thing was mentioned with quotes the first time for a reason. It was not something done in purpose, but none the less it opened the floodgates. Lilian was THE person to destroy the Crusade from the inside, and no one knew it. It wasn't fate, it wasn't coincidence. Had Lilian died to never be raised, nothing would had happened. But she was, and this gave her a second chance, to see the sins and lies of the Crusade. Their scorn fueled her anger and desire for revenge and this lead to their definitive -probably- end.

    So yeah, she does "owe" them, even when it was not their intention. I think she can appreciate more the random nature of the causality of this path, instead of it being born out of machination. Had the forsaken "used" her with intention, bet your sweet ass they could be primary targets on her list. You have to see that undead meant more than just reanimation for Lilian, it was the first times she was truly free of will, not controlled, ordered or manipulated for anyone.

    She was finally free, and the forsaken -and Sylvanas- where the responsible of this. As such, I believe there's an small appreciation shown in the form of keeping out of their way; for the time being, at least.

  12. #72
    Because the forsaken were turned away by their families(The Alliance) when they gained their free will. That kind of betrayal causes you to cling to whoever will accept you.

  13. #73
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Your interpretation would make Lilian awfully simplistic, and I prefer to believe there's a pathos to her actions: and her appearance in the Scarlet halls support this. Even though revenge is one of the motivations, she clearly states that she sees the Crusade has becoming irredeemable evil and in need to be destroyed. To this end, she seeks the aid of adventurers.

    Now, you are free to believe that she is lying about that.

    The "freedom" thing was mentioned with quotes the first time for a reason. It was not something done in purpose, but none the less it opened the floodgates. Lilian was THE person to destroy the Crusade from the inside, and no one knew it. It wasn't fate, it wasn't coincidence. Had Lilian died to never be raised, nothing would had happened. But she was, and this gave her a second chance, to see the sins and lies of the Crusade. Their scorn fueled her anger and desire for revenge and this lead to their definitive -probably- end.

    So yeah, she does "owe" them, even when it was not their intention. I think she can appreciate more the random nature of the causality of this path, instead of it being born out of machination. Had the forsaken "used" her with intention, bet your sweet ass they could be primary targets on her list. You have to see that undead meant more than just reanimation for Lilian, it was the first times she was truly free of will, not controlled, ordered or manipulated for anyone.

    She was finally free, and the forsaken -and Sylvanas- where the responsible of this. As such, I believe there's an small appreciation shown in the form of keeping out of their way; for the time being, at least.
    She makes it very clear that she hates her new form of existence. I don't think that, when she comes face to face with Sylvanas that she will say thank you.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    She makes it very clear that she hates her new form of existence. I don't think that, when she comes face to face with Sylvanas that she will say thank you.
    Anyone who doesn't like it are free to return to the grave.
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    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  15. #75
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Anyone who doesn't like it are free to return to the grave.
    That doesn't reverse the mental trauma they cause these people. Eventually she might do that. But I think not before making sure they can't continue to create more undead.
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  16. #76
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    She makes it very clear that she hates her new form of existence. I don't think that, when she comes face to face with Sylvanas that she will say thank you.
    But it is not an absolute, don't be this reductive. I'm not saying she will swoon over Lady S, I'm saying that all of this might have given enough of a debt, appreciation, whatever, to let the forsaken be and explain why she chose another targets for her revenge.

    Do we know if Lilian keeps hating her existence? probably; but if she did that much she would have offed herself after she finished the crusade. She is, at least, enjoying her revenge.

    Either way, she can both hate her existence and appreciate the opportunity it gave her -and used-. I believe that this gives Lilian a small appreciation for the forsaken, to at least let them be for now. Would have the forsaken become her next target? Probably.

  17. #77
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    But it is not an absolute, don't be this reductive. I'm not saying she will swoon over Lady S, I'm saying that all of this might have given enough of a debt, appreciation, whatever, to let the forsaken be and explain why she chose another targets for her revenge.

    Do we know if Lilian keeps hating her existence? probably; but if she did that much she would have offed herself after she finished the crusade. She is, at least, enjoying her revenge.

    Either way, she can both hate her existence and appreciate the opportunity it gave her -and used-. I believe that this gives Lilian a small appreciation for the forsaken, to at least let them be for now. Would have the forsaken become her next target? Probably.
    I don't necessarily think that the Forsaken are her next target, or that she feels contempt towards them. Sylvanas is responsible for what happened to her, and since Lilian hates what she turned her into, it would be very unlikely that she never at least tries to take revenge on her.
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  18. #78
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    I like that the Forsaken are 'evil' I just wish they were smarter about it, hid it better, or did it in ways that wouldn't make you stop and go "Wait, why are the orcs / rest of the Horde putting up with this?"
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I like that the Forsaken are 'evil' I just wish they were smarter about it, hid it better, or did it in ways that wouldn't make you stop and go "Wait, why are the orcs / rest of the Horde putting up with this?"
    They dont hide it well from players but orc NPCs are none the wiser. Hell, there is a chance that chunk of the ocupation in Undercity is already possessed.

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    They dont hide it well from players but orc NPCs are none the wiser. Hell, there is a chance that chunk of the ocupation in Undercity is already possessed.
    And that would be poor writing because we didn't get shown it.

    And no, they don't really hide it well from Orc npcs either.

    Remember Cromush in SFK? Yeah...
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

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