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  1. #1
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    The Cult of the Forsaken

    I found this, which seems to be a bit old, but is worth the read

    http://cynwise.posterous.com/on-the-forsaken

    I've always asked myself when playing a Forsaken character, why are people so obsessed with Sylvanas. Especially after reading her short story it's clear that she doesn't care about her own people and only uses them to postpone her own fate of eternal suffering.

    After reading this post, how can it not be clear how cruel the Forsaken are, how they do to others what has been done to them and how much they hate the living.

  2. #2
    People love the underdog and the down-trodden, and they love projecting sympathetic feelings onto them. It's what turned vampires from monstrous blood-suckers into sparkly ponies. I totally get it, I've imagined sympathetic Forsaken characters myself. We actually have some in-game, among the Argent Crusade, and Voss, etc.

    But yeah, by and large they are terrible, hateful people, and Sylvanas is the most awful. And I love it - love Sylvanas' characterization. So glad they didn't go another way with it and make her this darkly noble character. She's a powerful individual taking the long view of the realities of trying to be immortal, and what it's going to take, and is willing to build an entire civilization around herself like an armored cocoon.

    Can totally dig it. Praise the shadow!

  3. #3
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    So why do the Forsaken revere Sylvanas so much? It has been pointed out very often that the difference between her and the Lich King is not big. When asked about that difference, the only thing even she can come up with is, "we serve the Horde." But if what she is doing is basically the same, what does it matter who the master is? The Forsaken are the Forsaken, because they regained their free will. Yet they are told, right from the moment they are "reborn" that they should revere and serve someone they don't even know. "I created you, I am your master." You would think that there would be more characters like Lilian Voss.

  4. #4
    Honestly, I don't think anyone other than Sylvanas knows about her true intentions, i.e. that her people are merely tools to extend her own existence. If any others suspect, it's with the devotion of a fanatic who thinks it's a glorious purpose, to ensure the Banshee Queen and the Forsaken endure forever.

    Most them who don't know it revere Sylvanas for what she claims to have given them - a purpose and a place to belong, even if that purpose is horrific and the place comes at the cost of the living. They don't care that Sylvanas acts like the Lich King because she is their Lich King - their ruler, their giver of purpose. They've been wronged and now she's given them the ability to punish the world that wronged them - it's not what they're doing that bothers, them it's what was done to them, and they don't care about doing it to someone else, because 'someone else' doesn't include them.

    I sometimes suspect that becoming an undead changes a person on a fundamental level - as if the parts of their soul that are more capable of kindess and compassion go on to whatever afterlife there is, leaving behind the darker parts of their soul in their animated corpses.

  5. #5
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    That "purpose and place to belong" is under her foot. I can understand that the Forsaken who were originally created by the Lich King have no reason to blame Sylvanas and are now trying to find a place in the world, but the ones created by Sylvanas are only there because she wanted it. The Forsaken fought the Lich King for revenge, because he created them and made them do evil things as Scourge. They are cursed to "live" the rest of their lifes in undeath, as rotting corpses, without being able to feel. That's why they wanted revenge. Now the Forsaken created by Sylvanas have her to "thank" for that cursed existence.

    Also, from the Sylvanas short story, we know that she will suffer eternally after her "death". Is it reasonable to assume that the Forsaken will share the same fate?

  6. #6
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post

    Also, from the Sylvanas short story, we know that she will suffer eternally after her "death". Is it reasonable to assume that the Forsaken will share the same fate?
    Probably, though our heroes might go there as well, we killed so many people over the last 8 years, who is to say they are forgiven for that bloodshed.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  7. #7
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Probably, though our heroes might go there as well, we killed so many people over the last 8 years, who is to say they are forgiven for that bloodshed.
    It seems to me like it has to do with the state of undeath rather than atonement for their sins. If it is a punishment for evil deeds, then killing alone is probably not a condemning factor. There are things that justify killing, like self-defense. Killing the Lich King or Deathwing certainly doesn't justify eternal suffering.

  8. #8
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    It seems to me like it has to do with the state of undeath rather than atonement for their sins. If it is a punishment for evil deeds, then killing alone is probably not a condemning factor. There are things that justify killing, like self-defense. Killing the Lich King or Deathwing certainly doesn't justify eternal suffering.
    It is still hard to believe, that you get to go to "heaven" even though you slaughtered your way through azeroth left and right, killing ordinary people.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  9. #9
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is still hard to believe, that you get to go to "heaven" even though you slaughtered your way through azeroth left and right, killing ordinary people.
    I'm not sure what the terms of "going to heaven" are in WoW, but I'm sure fighting threats, self-defense, would not be seen as morally wrong, at least if that concept of heaven is similar to ours. I'm not even sure if that is explained anywhere. But why wouldn't someone that spend his life fighting the Burning Legion to protect others go to heaven.

  10. #10
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I'm not sure what the terms of "going to heaven" are in WoW, but I'm sure fighting threats, self-defense, would not be seen as morally wrong, at least if that concept of heaven is similar to ours. I'm not even sure if that is explained anywhere. But why wouldn't someone that spend his life fighting the Burning Legion to protect others go to heaven.
    If they would fight those solely sure, but our characters do kill quite some more or less innocent bystanders, take ulduar for example, we kill dark iron archaeologists, or kill Titan watchers, who try to saveguard the world, since the knowledge within is not meant for mortals etc.


    Though I am actually against this entire peaceful death and eternal anguish afterlife in wow, why should someone suffer for the attrocities of a single lifetime for all eternity, long after the stars themselves died these souls will still suffer, but oh well can't have everything.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  11. #11
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If they would fight those solely sure, but our characters do kill quite some more or less innocent bystanders, take ulduar for example, we kill dark iron archaeologists, or kill Titan watchers, who try to saveguard the world, since the knowledge within is not meant for mortals etc.


    Though I am actually against this entire peaceful death and eternal anguish afterlife in wow, why should someone suffer for the attrocities of a single lifetime for all eternity, long after the stars themselves died these souls will still suffer, but oh well can't have everything.
    You consider those really innocent bystanders?

    I guess people like the concept of heaven and hell because it'S unfair if people commit terrible crimes and then there's no punishment waiting for them, and the other way round, if people are suffering their whole life without ever doing anything wrong, it seems just that they should be rewarded later.

  12. #12
    The Forsaken arent evil they are just nihilists just like there leader

    They know theres nothing waiting for them except the darkness when they pass on cause they are damned

    They love sylvanas cause she freed them from being mindless slaves to arthas and she gives them some purpose

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    They know theres nothing waiting for them except the darkness when they pass on cause they are damned
    Maybe I'm being ignorant but has this ever been confirmed?
    The only cases I'm aware of are Arthas and Sylvanas of which neither are said to have explicitly gone this void because they were undead, both have also done very questionable things during their unlife which would also lend itself to their fate.
    The other problem with this is that we know so little about the afterlife in WoW.

  14. #14
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Maybe I'm being ignorant but has this ever been confirmed?
    The only cases I'm aware of are Arthas and Sylvanas of which neither are said to have explicitly gone this void because they were undead, both have also done very questionable things during their unlife which would also lend itself to their fate.
    The other problem with this is that we know so little about the afterlife in WoW.
    In case it should be true, it's even more of a crime that they turn other into undead. I think there needs to happen a change with the Forsaken. It's interesting having them as a race right now, and their Cataclysm starting experience is great, but they would be so much more awesome when they were this damned race that fought for justice instead of committing those crimes. Maybe Lilian Voss could be a character that brings that change and even opposes Sylvanas as a leader.

  15. #15
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    The Forsaken arent evil they are just nihilists just like there leader

    They know theres nothing waiting for them except the darkness when they pass on cause they are damned

    They love sylvanas cause she freed them from being mindless slaves to arthas and she gives them some purpose
    VE ARE NIHILISTS
    VE CARE ABOUT NOTHINK
    Nothink. Und tomorrow ve come back und ve cut off your johnson, Combootiwski.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Maybe I'm being ignorant but has this ever been confirmed?
    The only cases I'm aware of are Arthas and Sylvanas of which neither are said to have explicitly gone this void because they were undead, both have also done very questionable things during their unlife which would also lend itself to their fate.
    The other problem with this is that we know so little about the afterlife in WoW.
    Well they all committed atrocities while as scourge so i would say its safe to assume the light has abandoned them and they it know it

  17. #17
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    So, did you get withdrawal symptoms when we lacked a "Sylvanas is evil" thread for a week or so?
    The Forsaken now aren't that cruel, do not hate the living and Sylvanas cares about her people just as much as any other leader.

    We have enough threads on this subject already and you could better necro one of those instead of creating a new one every single week.

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    both have also done very questionable things during their unlife which would also lend itself to their fate...
    The same is true for most of the Forsaken.

    Frankly, it's hard to judge them with our own standards of morality. Their view of the world is totally different from that of the living, their emotions and personalities are shaped by it. There are only maybe a handful of truly altruistic Forsaken in the entire race that we know of. Even those who do good are often doing so out of a need for revenge or closure.

    We also know virtually nothing about the afterlife of WoW. I don't know that there is any divine force judging the deeds of individuals; if there is, it's hard to imagine the Forsaken being treated as unwilling innocents.


    As for why so many people like Sylvanas, I think it's mostly rooted in Warcraft III and the fact that she's an interesting character, pretty much unique amongst all the racial leaders. WoW currently doesn't have a lot of morally gray characters or anti-heroes, and she's one of them.

    I also think the OP is confusing Forsaken players liking Sylvanas for "Forsaken players think she's good." I think most Forsaken players enjoy the moral ambiguity. I think the justifications for their actions are generally accurate, but coming from a unique perspective.

    To me, it seems like there are a lot of people who say "Sylvanas is evil and the Forsaken are wrong, they don't deserve Lordaeron because they are just evil monsters! Sylvanas should be killed off and the Alliance should take back the lands."

    I think they're totally missing the point. The fact that they are dark, grim, and twisted, and that they cling to their lands despite (or in spite of) their undeath, is precisely what makes them a compelling race.

    If Sylvanas were to get killed off, the game would only become more boring for it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    Well they all committed atrocities while as scourge so i would say its safe to assume the light has abandoned them and they it know it
    But the Light hasn't abandoned them. Forsaken can still wield it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  20. #20
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonar View Post
    VE ARE NIHILISTS
    VE CARE ABOUT NOTHINK
    Nothink. Und tomorrow ve come back und ve cut off your johnson, Combootiwski.
    I love you.

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