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  1. #21
    Well, MMO PvP won't ever be balanced. That's just a fact, so there's no point taking it serious like a competitive game. However, I agree that it certainly hasn't always been this bad. I think PvP gets worse every expansion, but I don't really blame CC. Like it or not, it does add to the skill cap, though it's perhaps a bit much now. But I think the bigger problem is burst damage and healing, especially healing. Looking back to BC, it's true that individual class to class balance wasn't any better than it is now, but the flow of PvP in general was far better. In DPS vs DPS battles, people didn't ever die within seconds, and when healers were thrown into the mix, it didn't change things all that much. Now, if one side has a healer and the other doesn't, the fight almost always goes in favor of the healer. They're just too effective, and I think it's destroyed the flow of PvP. Instant CC needs to be gone or on much bigger CDs, I agree with that, but it won't do any good if healing isn't nerfed, and burst damage toned down along with it but to a lesser degree.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    PvP is at an all-time low in this game. It fucking sucks right now. All the new talents and abilities are totally fucking this game up.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 09:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Well, MMO PvP won't ever be balanced. That's just a fact
    I am actually going to agree with you for the first time ever. It never was balanced, but it was always better and more fun than it is now. It had a proper "flow" as you put it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    The problem is WPVP, RBGs and Random BGs would all suffer from a global DR, where people aren't as organised and would be punished for using CC, because it might DR a swap 10s into the future.

    How do you distinguish between a gouge on the healer, or a polymorph, or a psychic scream, or a kidney? All CCs work different, have different purposes and have different CDs. Putting them all on the same DR would destroy the skillcap in competitive Arena (and RBGs). You would no longer set up CC chains and look for hard swaps because the person you feared 10 seconds ago now has his stun DR refreshed and isn't a viable target.

    Melee train comps are already too popular and too easy, if CC-heavy comps like MLD and RMP get nerfed into the ground then all you'd see is melee/melee/healer who train 1 target from start to finish.

    I agree CC in general needs to be toned down, but changing diminishing returns (in my opinion) would not be the smartest way to go about it.
    While I totally agree that what you said could happen and definitely in unorganized pvp it probably will happen but then wouldn't you agree that not allowing for something like that to happen add to the skill cap in using CC? Isn't allowing someone to apply CC as they want without thinking before hand that they might be on DR something that requires more thought IE skill?

    For a moment let's forget about your concerns that you need to be able to CC. Let's think about the target who is being CC'ed. Do you think it is fair or enjoyable to be CC'ed longer than you actually have control of your character?

    Again what I had purposed is not an abolition of CC. Far from it. What I had purposed was a cap on CC within a given time period and punishing disorganized CC. I believe under this system truly organized CC would remain largely intact.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Revik View Post
    Again what I had purposed is not an abolition of CC. Far from it. What I had purposed was a cap on CC within a given time period and punishing disorganized CC. I believe under this system truly organized CC would remain largely intact.
    I just feel like instead of messing with the entire DR system and potentially ruining certain aspects of WoW PvP, it'd be so much easier instead just to get rid of the disorganized CC that is causing the problem.

    Hunter CC too strong and too easy? Add a 1.5s cast time to Freezing Trap and make it detonate instantly. (Just an example). Now it's predictable and can be stopped. I just think minor changes like this to instant CC has nearly no effect on PvE what so ever, but can help balance PvP.

    As a healer, I actually don't mind being CC'd 24/7 if the CC that is being put on me required a cast or some sort of requirement. At least then it can be stopped and it was the fault of my own team (and me) for letting the CC land.

    That's how I feel about CC in general, anyway.

  5. #25
    I stopped reading once you complained about leg sweep

    Mod edit: There's no need for posts like these. Either read the full post and post something constructive or don't post.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-03-27 at 09:24 PM.

  6. #26
    Except cheap shot and kidney can only be used on one person. Shock wave on the other hand did damage had no cost, and hit 3 targets.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 10:38 PM ----------

    ^^ agree I just want them to remove pet web from hunters and reduce the duration of their phyiscal root, make it dispellable, or have it break on damage.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  7. #27
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    PVP is ridiculous I agree. its been getting out of hand for the last couple years to the point where its at now which is goddamn awful. theres no fun or skill involved anymore. every class is virtually identical when it come to self healing or fears/stuns etc etc. like someone else said too, all specs have the abilities that 1 spec used to have i.e deep freeze etc wtf is that all about??...
    I gave up raiding at the end of Firelands (cos DS was a bag of shit, tried MoP raids toh and theyre also a bag of shit) and concentrated on PVP, got thru season 12 and decided that enough is enough. its just total bullshit now...... blizz haven't got a clue it seems. something drastic needs to change.. PVP is awful, raiding is awful, therefore WoW is awful and it pisses me off ;p.. not to mention the overbloated abilities everyone has.. anyway yea I agree with the OP.. everything blizz do lately is cack..
    ........THE WRITING'S ON THE WALL !!!!!

  8. #28
    Well, this Holinka guy is doing some serious changes and I like them a lot, but well, who knows if he can do all that he wants...

    I saw a rBG stream some days ago where a group pulled of a Massgrip into Vortex+Beam+RoF+Bindingshot+ 2nd Vortex Beam combo... that was just ridic...unavoidable MASS CC for the whole group...there is nothing you can do if the combo works! You get gripped into the combo, then you get stunned, RoFed, get soaked back into the silence and then the second Vortex Beam lands... jeezes >.>

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivena View Post
    The problem is:

    -if remove blanket silence (for example); they have to tone down instant healing and healing in general; then they have to reduce burst; then they have to reduce cc...its like a never ending spiral.
    Wouldn't it be far better to be put onto this spiral than the one we are on now though? So many instant CC and silences, so instant healing has been buffed as well as burst damage...and now look at the state of PvP. The sooner they get onto the better spiral the sooner PvP could start to become enjoyable again. Delaying it even more, especially to the next expansion could be pretty bad news for the PvP scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nivena View Post
    If they make such drastic changes; they will (like they said) to them at the end of the expansion or at the beginning of the next.
    A blue post said so today
    Given blizzards past history on doing stuff like this, I wouldn't count on it >.<

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    Well, this Holinka guy is doing some serious changes and I like them a lot, but well, who knows if he can do all that he wants...

    I saw a rBG stream some days ago where a group pulled of a Massgrip into Vortex+Beam+RoF+Bindingshot+ 2nd Vortex Beam combo... that was just ridic...unavoidable MASS CC for the whole group...there is nothing you can do if the combo works! You get gripped into the combo, then you get stunned, RoFed, get soaked back into the silence and then the second Vortex Beam lands... jeezes >.>
    This is the kind of shit I'm talking about. AoE CC needs to go. Its unfortunate that we are stuck with this mess for at least a year by my estimates because Blizzard is not going to push any drastic changes until next expansion.

  11. #31

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post

    * Once all your cc is on cooldown, you have an unstoppable target. You know what unstoppable targets do? They pop all their cooldowns and go nuts.

    And what do you do when you have a target fully CC'd? pop your cooldowns and go nuts.

    So its perfectly fair to CC someone to death ? Seriously ?

    Question, have you ever tried to take candy from a baby

    EDIT: CC's are out of control. use poor pally's have three at best.. all either on 30sec/1min /face palm 2 mins! How about we give the same cool down to everyone ? Problem solved

  12. #32
    blizzard thinks giving classes some defence while in cc is the way to go. Ele shamans were given shamanistic rage because of poor defensives. Not that it really helped. Just takes longer to die. Then we got like life cocoon, usable while stunned, guardian spirit, pain suppression, bark skin et etc.

    If they introduced these things then they should work with it. Stun DRs ware off way before pain suppression comes off cd.

    I dunno it's just a mess lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Synbaby's Avatar
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    I really think DR should be global. It's ridiculous that you can be CC'd by several players at once until you die. There is pretty much no point in even using a pvp trinket to break a CC when you've got 5+ players all on you, trying to CC you....
    What doesn't destroy us, only makes us stranger

  14. #34
    Nobody ever thought PVP was good in WoW except people who play WoW. It even got dropped and made fun of as a competitive e-sport.

    Separating PVP into it's own instances was one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard has ever made. Moreoever, in a game full of introverts, making people depend on a team to attain the best PVP gear is also a foolish idea.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 06:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Well, MMO PvP won't ever be balanced. That's just a fact, so there's no point taking it serious like a competitive game. However, I agree that it certainly hasn't always been this bad. I think PvP gets worse every expansion, but I don't really blame CC. Like it or not, it does add to the skill cap, though it's perhaps a bit much now. But I think the bigger problem is burst damage and healing, especially healing. Looking back to BC, it's true that individual class to class balance wasn't any better than it is now, but the flow of PvP in general was far better. In DPS vs DPS battles, people didn't ever die within seconds, and when healers were thrown into the mix, it didn't change things all that much. Now, if one side has a healer and the other doesn't, the fight almost always goes in favor of the healer. They're just too effective, and I think it's destroyed the flow of PvP. Instant CC needs to be gone or on much bigger CDs, I agree with that, but it won't do any good if healing isn't nerfed, and burst damage toned down along with it but to a lesser degree.
    GW2 is about 100000000000 times better balanced than World of Warcraft in terms of PVP. Even in WvW everything is balanced except one single class, which is being worked on.

    World of Warcraft is a game designed from the ground up for PVE. PVP was not even in the game outside of flagging when WoW launched. All the people who designed the game were strict PVE players only. Two of the most famous developers, now working on Titan, were leaders of the biggest and best raiding guilds in EQ.

    WoW was simply never developed for PVP. Never has been, never will be. People who enjoy PVP should wait for Titan. Clearly the game will be designed for both.
    Last edited by Titan; 2013-03-28 at 06:07 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    Nobody ever thought PVP was good in WoW except people who play WoW. It even got dropped and made fun of as a competitive e-sport.

    Separating PVP into it's own instances was one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard has ever made. Moreoever, in a game full of introverts, making people depend on a team to attain the best PVP gear is also a foolish idea.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 06:13 AM ----------



    GW2 is about 100000000000 times better balanced than World of Warcraft in terms of PVP. Even in WvW everything is balanced except one single class, which is being worked on.

    World of Warcraft is a game designed from the ground up for PVE. PVP was not even in the game outside of flagging when WoW launched. All the people who designed the game were strict PVE players only. Two of the most famous developers, now working on Titan, were leaders of the biggest and best raiding guilds in EQ.

    WoW was simply never developed for PVP. Never has been, never will be. People who enjoy PVP should wait for Titan. Clearly the game will be designed for both.
    That's a bunch of BS. Wow was never develops for pet battles, scenarios, or lfr yet they've all been implemented. Just because it wasn't developed from the very beginning doesn't mean the game can't evolve.

    And GW2 PvP is not balanced either which is why most came back to WoW's as broken as it is.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    Nobody ever thought PVP was good in WoW except people who play WoW. It even got dropped and made fun of as a competitive e-sport.

    Separating PVP into it's own instances was one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard has ever made. Moreoever, in a game full of introverts, making people depend on a team to attain the best PVP gear is also a foolish idea.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 06:13 AM ----------



    GW2 is about 100000000000 times better balanced than World of Warcraft in terms of PVP. Even in WvW everything is balanced except one single class, which is being worked on.

    World of Warcraft is a game designed from the ground up for PVE. PVP was not even in the game outside of flagging when WoW launched. All the people who designed the game were strict PVE players only. Two of the most famous developers, now working on Titan, were leaders of the biggest and best raiding guilds in EQ.

    WoW was simply never developed for PVP. Never has been, never will be. People who enjoy PVP should wait for Titan. Clearly the game will be designed for both.
    In no way am I heralding that WoW was ever a good or balanced PvP game. What I was saying was that PvP used to be an avenue of fun in a game with many other things in it. Now with the way things are now PvP is no longer that same avenue of fun that it used to be.

    What I had purposed was trying to get WoW more back to the way it was when things were fun. Not saying things were ever balanced certainly not to a level where you can have official competitive play but an avenue where you run a BG or two and come away with a good feeling.

    Currently all I seem to notice is the absurdly long stretches of CC/uselessness in PvP so I come away thoroughly disgusted instead of that good feeling I used to get.

  17. #37
    I actually wish it was a bit more imbalanced at this point from the ability standpoint. Attempting to balance it has really just ended up giving every class every ability, which is rather pointless. Instead of a pvp encounter consisting of "Oh s**t, it's a (insert class & spec here), watch for their signature stun", it's become "Oh it's a pvp encounter let's go back and fourth exchanging CC's, stuns, and burst cd's, and then when we're both low pop defensive cd's at the same time so we're all immune to everything, and ultimately run away and heal at the same time."

    Blizz giving every class everything and the ability to heal is really what ruined it. Instead of being able to change play styles to match opponents, you really just have to play the same for the most part and just be ready to counter every class' stun, root, double sprint/charge/shield/grip mechanic, immune cd, and heal. I'd love to go back to the days where most classes didn't have a heal. You had to play smarter both as that person and against them or differing opponents.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Chestbrah View Post
    I actually wish it was a bit more imbalanced at this point from the ability standpoint. Attempting to balance it has really just ended up giving every class every ability, which is rather pointless. Instead of a pvp encounter consisting of "Oh s**t, it's a (insert class & spec here), watch for their signature stun", it's become "Oh it's a pvp encounter let's go back and fourth exchanging CC's, stuns, and burst cd's, and then when we're both low pop defensive cd's at the same time so we're all immune to everything, and ultimately run away and heal at the same time."

    Blizz giving every class everything and the ability to heal is really what ruined it. Instead of being able to change play styles to match opponents, you really just have to play the same for the most part and just be ready to counter every class' stun, root, double sprint/charge/shield/grip mechanic, immune cd, and heal. I'd love to go back to the days where most classes didn't have a heal. You had to play smarter both as that person and against them or differing opponents.
    I understand where you are coming from and I do agree. Classes have gotten more and more homogenized over time.

  19. #39
    i agree 100%. blanket silences, 5 sec+ stuns, spammable cc and instant aoe cc's have hurt pvp so very much. the shear amount of cc's each class has now is ridiculous. each class used to have 1, maybe 2 cc's. now i cant think of many that have less then 4 if not 6-7+.

    they think providing base resil will help fix issue. nope, sorry. pvp issues are completely class kit based. they have put in too many god abilites and have now seen how bad its messed the game up. unfortunately they arent going to trim abilites due to the backlash they would get. so they slowly butcher pvp instead.

    5.3 will only mean fotm comps will continue to rule, many classes still wont have a prayer on good ranks (poor dps shammies ), and poor players will still be roflstomped by op classes/ better players.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 02:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Synbaby View Post
    I really think DR should be global. It's ridiculous that you can be CC'd by several players at once until you die. There is pretty much no point in even using a pvp trinket to break a CC when you've got 5+ players all on you, trying to CC you....
    100% agree as well. all cc's should dr off each other! druids and rogues, paired with a mage can keep a 15-20 sec lock out easy. that is complete crap game mechanics.

  20. #40
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Yesterday morning I would have disagreed with you. However, after last night I couldn't agree more. The current state of the PvP in this game is a sorry excuse for "entertainment". They claim they try to fix things, but nothing has changed. As long as you stick to one of a handful of compositions, you're nigh unstoppable. And if you don't have one of said compositions, you can forget everything about breaking 1500. The CC in unbelievably broken as it stands right now.

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