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  1. #1

    Disgusted with WoW PvP

    I have played WoW PvP since the beginning and I will never herald it as a pinnacle of PvP but I have always been able to find enjoyment with it as a pass time between PvE endeavors, achievements, fishing, etc.

    However since MoP I never have been more disgusted with WoW PvP than I am now. Maybe it has to do with playing a monk I am not sure. There are 2 things that happen A LOT. Either being bursted down and killed in a few seconds or CC'ed to eternity then bursted down and killed in a few seconds.

    Now I am not under any allusions. In WoW being bursted down and killed in short order has always existed. The only difference now is the prevalence of CC's now for every class. Here is some of the stupidity that has been added this expansion mind you not an exhaustive list:

    Shockwave - Before a prot talent for Warriors now all warriors have it.
    Deep Freeze - Before a Frost only ability now available to all mages (this is marginal since most mages in PvP were frost)
    Fist of Justice - Hammer of Justice just twice as often.
    Blood Fear/Horror - 5.1 totally ridiculous, 5.2 manageable but still added CC this expansion.
    Leg Sweep - 5 sec AoE Stun - nuff said.
    Blinding Light - AoE Disorient
    Psyfiend Fear - Semi Short Cooldown for free fears

    That is all I'll list but there are many many more that have been added or gained more exposure due to the talent ability changes Blizzard has made this expansion.

    I believe to bring PvP back to a good point we need to remove ALL AoE CC abilities this goes roots, stuns, fears, AND disorients. There's no skill in them and the primary cause for collateral CC frustration.

    The second thing that needs to be done is revamping of the DR system. Cycling through CC shouldn't even be possible. What I purpose, while I don't believe in CC's being separated into different categories I'll work with what we have, is that CC that are on DR have their timer reset when another CC of a different category is used. For instance say you got stunned and then 10 seconds later you got feared. The DR timer on the hard stun would reset back to 0 giving you again 15 secs of DR timer for stuns. So now you have DR timers for Stuns and Fears then lets say you got stunned again 10 seconds later. Stuns would be on DR level 2 (50% effectiveness) and Fears DR timer would again reset back to 0.

    I purpose this because it is a way to work within the frame work of the convoluted DR system that Blizzard has created while also giving the player at least 15 seconds of freedom from all CC's before you are cleared. This would end the stupid rotating cycling of CC's over and over.

  2. #2
    Dreadlord Nivena's Avatar
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    I feel the same way...I play an elemental shaman and have 63% resilience. In a BG I am more waiting to be resurrected than alive.

    This whole PvP aspect is rediculous at the moment; also because there are a lot of elite players running around in full malevolent elite gear with 2/2 upgrades.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord joepesci's Avatar
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    As a BM hunter I don't have this impression, unless they zerg me 5v1, then I can't move until I'm dead in like 5-15 secs. Being ranged and having like 3 trinkets probably helps ;-)

    Other than that, I guess I could live with the CC proposals you made.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Nivena's Avatar
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    The problem is:

    -if remove blanket silence (for example); they have to tone down instant healing and healing in general; then they have to reduce burst; then they have to reduce cc...its like a never ending spiral.

    If they make such drastic changes; they will (like they said) to them at the end of the expansion or at the beginning of the next.
    A blue post said so today

  5. #5
    what can i say enh shaman here, worst control in the game, worst survivability in the game,
    damn i almost can hear enemies when im entering arena saing : "enh shaman, easy win, yay"
    tbh i can hear it in any pvp movie
    Last edited by kosajk; 2013-03-26 at 09:39 PM.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire
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    I like CC in PvP because it becomes more than just who does the most damage faster (or who's healer is better if teams have them around). However, I do like the idea of diminishing return timers being reset when a different effect is used.

    It still wouldn't keep you from being burned down in a single stun, but that's not happening unless there's some severe gear disparity (supposedly being somewhat addressed in 5.3) anyway.

    I actually really loved the Resolve system in TOR while I was over there because it didn't matter what effect type had you locked down, but how long you were locked down and whether or not damage would break it (because things like stuns make you much more vulnerable than an incapacitate). There were still cases where it felt helpless, so it could probably use some work, but the basic premise was good.

  7. #7
    I'm plaiyng as demo lock and i enjoy my class ( only issue is i the missing "vengance" for tanky build ç_ç ), but also agree with thread starter. Talking about balancing in terms of cc and dr.

  8. #8
    Cycling through different DR timers is part of the "skill" that PvP requires.

  9. #9
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nivena View Post
    I feel the same way...I play an elemental shaman and have 63% resilience. In a BG I am more waiting to be resurrected than alive.

    This whole PvP aspect is rediculous at the moment; also because there are a lot of elite players running around in full malevolent elite gear with 2/2 upgrades.
    63% is considered as low, most geared players are sitting 66-68%. While it's only a few %, resilience is so strong that you'll notice the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revik View Post
    The second thing that needs to be done is revamping of the DR system. Cycling through CC shouldn't even be possible. What I purpose, while I don't believe in CC's being separated into different categories I'll work with what we have, is that CC that are on DR have their timer reset when another CC of a different category is used. For instance say you got stunned and then 10 seconds later you got feared. The DR timer on the hard stun would reset back to 0 giving you again 15 secs of DR timer for stuns. So now you have DR timers for Stuns and Fears then lets say you got stunned again 10 seconds later. Stuns would be on DR level 2 (50% effectiveness) and Fears DR timer would again reset back to 0.
    That would ruin more than it fixes.
    Several flaws I see with your whole idea:
    • In random battlegrounds and wpvp, the cc of someone else can and will ruin the DR of your cc spells. Being unable to fear because some silly rogue stunned my target? No thanks.
    • A wrongly timed cc spell can and will ruin all DR timers. Should I be punished and be unable to fear because my partner used a stun at 14.5 sec on the timer?
    • Once all your cc is on cooldown, you have an unstoppable target. You know what unstoppable targets do? They pop all their cooldowns and go nuts.

    Some classes need their cc reduced, I agree on that, but changing how DR works is a bad idea.

    Also, 1 spell really caught my attention.
    Blood Fear/Horror - 5.1 totally ridiculous, 5.2 manageable but still added CC this expansion.
    Since MoP, warlocks can no longer have mortal (death) coil, howl of terror and shadow fury (if destruction) at the same time.
    Destruction has 1 cc spell less then in cataclysm while affliction and demonology are on an equal amount. We lost the 70% slow as well, but that's not really considered as cc.

    I have to say though that some of the other new cc spells are easy stoppable, the psyfiend for example can be quickly killed while blinding light is not very effective if you're looking away.

  10. #10
    Pandaren Monk
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    CC and DR-playing is part of being good at PvP. That being said, I think the one fix to DR's is to collapse some of the groups. Or give every single CC a cooldown. Like... poly has a 10-15 sec CD. Same with cyclone. and balance around that.

    That still allows for skillful CC chains, hell, it even promotes them. Instead of comps like God-comp just spewing CC all over the place willy nilly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 06:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nivena View Post
    I feel the same way...I play an elemental shaman and have 63% resilience. In a BG I am more waiting to be resurrected than alive.

    This whole PvP aspect is rediculous at the moment; also because there are a lot of elite players running around in full malevolent elite gear with 2/2 upgrades.
    You should have more than that. My Boomkin, Hunter, and Monk all have ~67% and my paladin has something like 68.3%.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    That would ruin more than it fixes.
    Several flaws I see with your whole idea:
    • In random battlegrounds and wpvp, the cc of someone else can and will ruin the DR of your cc spells. Being unable to fear because some silly rogue stunned my target? No thanks.
    • A wrongly timed cc spell can and will ruin all DR timers. Should I be punished and be unable to fear because my partner used a stun at 14.5 sec on the timer?
    • Once all your cc is on cooldown, you have an unstoppable target. You know what unstoppable targets do? They pop all their cooldowns and go nuts.
    I actually see no issue with this. There's one thing you're not getting. How long did someone have to be CC'ed to have gotten to that point? 15-25 secs? I don't think it is unfair to ask that you have at least 50% time to be in control of your character.

    Also this unstoppable target you speak of wouldn't it be skillful on your part not to let that happen? That kind of dynamic init of itself could lessen CC as we know it. So no I don't agree the issue you have brought up is an issue.

    If you can list out the different types of CC and then just remove one type so you never get to the unstoppable target I think you'll agree that is not that bad.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    Once all your cc is on cooldown, you have an unstoppable target. You know what unstoppable targets do? They pop all their cooldowns and go nuts.
    Don't CC characters that haven't blown cooldowns yet then.
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  13. #13
    I personally liked swtor's resolve bar method to prevent absurd amounts of cc
    Bane

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Revik View Post
    Shockwave - Before a prot talent for Warriors now all warriors have it.
    Yeah but DPS Warriors used to have Throwdown instead which was 5s and because it knocked you to the floor you couldn't even trinket it. Remember that BS? I sure do. It's gone now.
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  15. #15
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Don't CC characters that haven't blown cooldowns yet then.
    Nonetheless, you are creating windows where absolutely no one is allowed to use cc so you can reset all the DR timers. Even when it doesn't come to cooldowns, some classes have so much sustained damage going you really can't allow them to go free for that long.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    Nonetheless, you are creating windows where absolutely no one is allowed to use cc so you can reset all the DR timers. Even when it doesn't come to cooldowns, some classes have so much sustained damage going you really can't allow them to go free for that long.
    Then it's up to you whether you CC natural damage or not. That's part of the skill of low CC PvP.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Yeah but DPS Warriors used to have Throwdown instead which was 5s and because it knocked you to the floor you couldn't even trinket it. Remember that BS? I sure do. It's gone now.
    While throwdown was freaking stupid, I'd personally argue that 20 second shockwave was much MUCH worse. 40 second shockwave is about as bad too but with the prevalence of cc, warriors are actually on the lower end of the totem poll after the 5.2 nerfs.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Then it's up to you whether you CC natural damage or not. That's part of the skill of low CC PvP.
    The problem is WPVP, RBGs and Random BGs would all suffer from a global DR, where people aren't as organised and would be punished for using CC, because it might DR a swap 10s into the future.

    How do you distinguish between a gouge on the healer, or a polymorph, or a psychic scream, or a kidney? All CCs work different, have different purposes and have different CDs. Putting them all on the same DR would destroy the skillcap in competitive Arena (and RBGs). You would no longer set up CC chains and look for hard swaps because the person you feared 10 seconds ago now has his stun DR refreshed and isn't a viable target.

    Melee train comps are already too popular and too easy, if CC-heavy comps like MLD and RMP get nerfed into the ground then all you'd see is melee/melee/healer who train 1 target from start to finish.

    I agree CC in general needs to be toned down, but changing diminishing returns (in my opinion) would not be the smartest way to go about it.

  19. #19
    I am Murloc! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    While throwdown was freaking stupid, I'd personally argue that 20 second shockwave was much MUCH worse. 40 second shockwave is about as bad too but with the prevalence of cc, warriors are actually on the lower end of the totem poll after the 5.2 nerfs.
    Shockwave on 20s is not bad when you compare it to the bullshit other classes were given; 3s warbringer into 4s shockwave was the real problem, but even then you still have 5s cheapshot into 2.5s cheapshot now, its just bad design in general, but that only seems to matter for Warrior abilities.

    The playstyle of most classes now is that of a mage or rogue in Wrath, the level of instant CC and just bullshit abilities you scratch your head at wondering why they were put in the game. Instead of nerfing mage control they brought other classes to that level of idiotic CC, then decided to push Mages ahead of that, then decided Healers need to be caught up to mage level, and then brought up other classes as well. Spiraling into stupidity.

    If they really want more people to PvP, then they have to start by nerfing the shit out of CC because it ruins the pvp experience. No more spammable CC, no more instants that last for more then 4s, no more chaining instants that don't break on damage. Then they nerf the shit out of healers, because the only thing that comes close to being as annoying as CC is these seemingly invincible healers. I remember a very long stretch of WoW where I was able to solo healers and GASP people still ran healers in there 2s,3s,5s and BGs. This worked because the Healer would be helped out by their teammates!!!!! CC and Healers are imo 90% of Frustration people have in PvP; and it doesnt have to be this way; and it didn't used to be.
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  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    Putting them all on the same DR would destroy the skillcap in competitive Arena (and RBGs).
    Good.

    It'll be a good way to get more people into that content (because it's clearly dying). Having your character helpless for the vast majority of the time isn't fun gameplay, and instead of people getting over it (like they did in the past), they're just quitting.
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