Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Combat really *that* ahead with 4 pc?

    Title says it all really. Received a TF'd animus mace along with the twins fist weapon. I already have 3 pc and will soon acquire 4 pc pending coin/a decent drop. I was wondering if I should make the switch or if it's not really that worth it. I know how to play combat very well and it seems like the cleave, even though nerfed, would be nice on fights like heroic horridon/ji'kun.

    Here's my armory if anyone would like to take a look at it. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nfrey/advanced
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    It's a pretty big gap. I recently got the 4pc and stayed mut for a bit before swapping. Swapping gave me another 10k (ShadowC shows 13k higher), plus the new RPPM trinkets are actually upgrades (or my old trinkets are worse? Probably a combination) for Combat.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord Vanthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ol US of A
    Posts
    790
    Blah, was really hoping they would tune the Combat 4PC so I am not forced to go back. I really like the play style of Mutilate. I am still 2 pieces away from 4 pc though, so hopefully there is still time, if any to tune it down if they feel the need.

  4. #4
    Squirl, are you seeing in raid a pretty noticeable DPS/damage increase as compared to mut?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Yodawinfrey View Post
    Squirl, are you seeing in raid a pretty noticeable DPS/damage increase as compared to mut?
    All he said in his post was that he saw a 10k increase...

  6. #6
    Method has 4 raiding rogues (Smootie hopped from Envy there).
    All of them got 4pc15, all of them playing assa (and reforging/gemming mastery, not haste as ShC suggests).
    P.S. It's not about weapons, Smootie has HC TF fist for example.
    Just food for thought.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    All he said in his post was that he saw a 10k increase...
    .....sigh. He also said, and I quote, "I recently got the 4pc and stayed mut for a bit before swapping." Meaning, at some point he did swap to combat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning <--- This may help you in the future.

  8. #8
    Due to the last minute buffs to assassination combat doesn't clearly pass assassination with 4pc, in fact combat basically requires 4pc to be competitive.

    Both Shadow and SimCraft show combat ahead in 4pc but not by a huge degree however both are making very aggressive assumptions about how often you will use AR+SB. With 4pc T15 is should be feasible to get an AR+SB every 60 seconds and both tools are assuming that usage, in practice many fights this tier are not particularly amenable to that usage requirement which degrades the value of the set bonus and combat in general somewhat.

  9. #9
    It all comes down again to a poorly designed set bonus leading to a cluster^%@$ of cross-spec balance.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Yodawinfrey View Post
    .....sigh. He also said, and I quote, "I recently got the 4pc and stayed mut for a bit before swapping." Meaning, at some point he did swap to combat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning <--- This may help you in the future.
    No need to be rude, but you took my post way too literally, and clearly didn't read his closely enough.

    "Swapping (from mut to combat) gave me another 10k"

    What more could you possibly want from him to answer your question? And can we deduce that what I put in parenthesis is what he was swapping to and from? I mean, it's pretty clear. He got the 4p, stayed mut for a bit, then switched to combat and saw a 10k increase.
    Last edited by Regen; 2013-03-27 at 01:33 PM.

  11. #11
    why they are always building the setbonus on shadowblades ever since they introduced shadowblades is beyond me. its a neat cd but since combat can reduce its cooldown and assassination cant, it will always remain better for combat and therefore create and imbalance on effectiveness of the set bonus.
    ~

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Method has 4 raiding rogues (Smootie hopped from Envy there).
    All of them got 4pc15, all of them playing assa (and reforging/gemming mastery, not haste as ShC suggests).
    P.S. It's not about weapons, Smootie has HC TF fist for example.
    Just food for thought.
    That's not really relevant. They're also still in progression (or barely out of progression), and switching specs during progression when you're already past the DPS checks isn't a good idea (40k more raid DPS is not going to instantly result in a kill for most guilds, especially in Method which ALWAYS has some, if not most of the best DPS in the world). Give it a week or two after they've got all of Throne of Thunder on farm, THEN see what they do.
    Last edited by Carp The Fish; 2013-03-27 at 02:17 PM.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    That's not really relevant. They're also still in progression (or barely out of progression), and switching specs during progression when you're already past the DPS checks isn't a good idea (40k more raid DPS is not going to instantly result in a kill for most guilds, especially in Method which ALWAYS has some, if not most of the best DPS in the world). Give it a week or two after they've got all of Throne of Thunder on farm, THEN see what they do.
    I disagree
    That 40k dps probably means more for a hard core guild like method etc when kills are down to the wire.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fallschick View Post
    I disagree
    That 40k dps probably means more for a hard core guild like method etc when kills are down to the wire.
    I agree with this. Not to mention if they are running multiple rogues that theoretical 40k dps /rogue would be a nice addition to almost every fight I reckon. Also if you say they are really some of the best dps in the world (I doubt that a bit but let's not get into that ) then them running assassination is a clear indication that the spec is above combat.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 05:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharlok View Post
    why they are always building the setbonus on shadowblades ever since they introduced shadowblades is beyond me. its a neat cd but since combat can reduce its cooldown and assassination cant, it will always remain better for combat and therefore create and imbalance on effectiveness of the set bonus.
    It's always the same...last time it was Tricks now it's Shadow Blades.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    That's not really relevant. They're also still in progression (or barely out of progression), and switching specs during progression when you're already past the DPS checks isn't a good idea (40k more raid DPS is not going to instantly result in a kill for most guilds, especially in Method which ALWAYS has some, if not most of the best DPS in the world). Give it a week or two after they've got all of Throne of Thunder on farm, THEN see what they do.
    Indeed. They bringing 4 rogues in assa spec for Lei Shen HC kill just for fun and not for min/max puprose
    P.S. If it's not obvious yet - top guilds actually stacking assassination rogues.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Indeed. They bringing 4 rogues in assa spec for Lei Shen HC kill just for fun and not for min/max puprose
    P.S. If it's not obvious yet - top guilds actually stacking assassination rogues.
    I don't see anything that assassination brings to that fight that combat doesn't. However, I have noticed that it's a lot harder to pay attention to mechanics when running Combat. I find myself tunnel visioning when AR+SB is running (that'll probably improve with more experience), KSp causes problems on some fights, cooldown times are variable and require babysitting, BF has to be managed, and energy gain tends to be really spiky due to mastery (50% buffed for me) and Combat Potency (sometimes caps within a global or two; I'm no longer pooling on RvS because this).

    Combat requires a much higher APM and far more rotational attention than assassination. I can see how it would be overly exhausting if you're raiding 16 hours a day. Rogues in Method, BL, Exodus, Vodka, Midwinter, etc. have been known to cap expertise as Assassination even when it's a theoretical loss just to keep their rotation more consistent. Swapping to combat is a much bigger gain to pass up, but the reasoning holds true especially during progression.

    They might be stacking rogues (not specifically assassination rogues) for Lei Shen because Feint, Smokebomb, and Cloak trivialize a lot of mechanics and damage on that fight.
    Last edited by Squirl; 2013-03-27 at 06:42 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    They might be stacking rogues (not specifically assassination rogues) for Lei Shen because Feint, Smokebomb, and Cloak trivialize a lot of mechanics and damage on that fight.
    Smootie joined for Lei Shen, so before that Method had 3 raiding rogues.
    According to armory they've got 3 rogues for every kill on:

    Jin'rokh, Megaera, Dark Animus, Iron Qon, Consorts.

    P.S. Before this reset ofc.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Smootie joined for Lei Shen, so before that Method had 3 raiding rogues.
    According to armory they've got 3 rogues for every kill on:

    Jin'rokh, Megaera, Dark Animus, Iron Qon, Consorts.

    P.S. Before this reset ofc.
    The same abilities prevent a lot of damage on all those fights too. If you're going to have any melee, rogues are a really strong choice.

  19. #19
    You have to look at the mechanics of the fight. Maybe FOK is really good on Lei Shen or a particular fight. Maybe Assa Execute is very good (think horridon, mag etc.). Mechanics of fight in most cases trumps max single target dps. Just because most rogues are mutilate on Lei Shen, does not mean mutilate is the higher single target. Also with combat and the 4pc, your dps will be very spikey. If you have adds that need to be killed quickly and you dont have AR/SB ready with combat, your effectiveness during this period will be minimal. If you have to hold AR/SB for any decent amount of time (say for when those adds come out), you will experience an overall dps loses.
    Last edited by RogueDurr; 2013-03-27 at 08:00 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    However, I have noticed that it's a lot harder to pay attention to mechanics when running Combat. I find myself tunnel visioning when AR+SB is running (that'll probably improve with more experience),
    That comes down to spec familiarity. I find myself paying more attention to timers when I play specs other than combat. Comes down to having a "feel" for timings, etc. Switching to an alt that is on a 1.5sec GCD class screws with me royally because of that "feel."

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 04:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDurr View Post
    If you have to hold AR/SB for any decent amount of time (say for when those adds come out), you will experience an overall dps loses.
    If you need to hold AR/SB for those adds, then burst is important and combat or sub would be more optimal anyway.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •