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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDurr View Post
    Maybe FOK is really good on Lei Shen or a particular fight. Maybe Assa Execute is very good (think horridon, mag etc.)
    No. CoS and Cheat Death.
    Plus assa is one of the best DPS specs atm.

  2. #22
    Combat requires a much higher APM and far more rotational attention than assassination. I can see how it would be overly exhausting if you're raiding 16 hours a day.
    I seriously doubt that's the reason behind them being Assa.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    I don't see anything that assassination brings to that fight that combat doesn't. However, I have noticed that it's a lot harder to pay attention to mechanics when running Combat. I find myself tunnel visioning when AR+SB is running (that'll probably improve with more experience), KSp causes problems on some fights, cooldown times are variable and require babysitting, BF has to be managed, and energy gain tends to be really spiky due to mastery (50% buffed for me) and Combat Potency (sometimes caps within a global or two; I'm no longer pooling on RvS because this).

    Combat requires a much higher APM and far more rotational attention than assassination. I can see how it would be overly exhausting if you're raiding 16 hours a day. Rogues in Method, BL, Exodus, Vodka, Midwinter, etc. have been known to cap expertise as Assassination even when it's a theoretical loss just to keep their rotation more consistent. Swapping to combat is a much bigger gain to pass up, but the reasoning holds true especially during progression.

    They might be stacking rogues (not specifically assassination rogues) for Lei Shen because Feint, Smokebomb, and Cloak trivialize a lot of mechanics and damage on that fight.
    Assassination's execute is a relevant advantage, this tier has fewer big execute range burns compared to T14 but I could see strong execute being powerful on council, consorts, heroic qon and lei shen. Combat also suffers from being much more sensative to fight mechanics vs. assassination, with 4pc such a large percent of its damage from AR+SB any uptime loss during AR+SB or even a "wasted" GCD on feint for instance is a non-trivial dps loss, in general if you lose on average a single GCD per AR+SB for whatever reason you lose about 1.5% dps and that continues for each gcd lost on average per AR+SB.

    Certainly assassination suffers if interupted during CDs as well but assassination isn't as punished because its cds represent a much smaller portion of its overall damage. Yes combat does more raw damage but the deck is stacked against it similarly to how the deck was stacked against sub during FL and DS. Perhaps not to the same degree but I wouldn't be surprised if many rogues stay with assassination as their full time spec because of the limitations of combat.

  4. #24
    If anything, the 4p bonus brings combat close to assa, because the gap between the two specs right now is insanely in favor of assa. Just look at top guild, even rogues with 4p are still assa, and they don't usually go for a spec just because they like it more, do they?

    Also, Noxxic numbers (based on SimC) for BiS settings are as follows:

    Maximum Projection:
    Assa - 201K
    Combat - 205K

    Realistic Projection:
    Assa - 192K
    Combat - 184K
    We are competing to win, and if you no longer go for a gap, you're no longer a gamer.

  5. #25
    i got recently t15 4set and i also have higher ilvl weapons for combat (522 vs 510 for ass) i switch to combat for megaera and ji-kun and i have to say that it sucks at least for me maybe in jin rokh or tortos it can be better but certainly boss mechanics fuck up combat if u lose time using feint or something during as/sb, if u cant use ks, if u cant have full uptime on your target those things screw combat hard. in patchwerk fights maybe combat will be better but in this tier assa is the king.

  6. #26
    As we get more and more boss fights that rely heavier on mechanics, simplicity in rotation is going to matter more and more. I consistently see Frost DKs and Assassin rogues doing very well (including myself) because you can divide your attention a lot easier and still manage to do great dps. While I'm not saying combat is brain-busting difficult, I think it's a pretty standard opinion that it requires more attention than Assassination.

    Blizzard has done a great job over the last year or two keeping all specs within a 5% difference. So if you aren't in the 10 guilds in the race to world first, I don't see a 5% margin swaying anyone into playing something they don't enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  7. #27
    If top raiding rogues are assa then it's safe to assume that in those fights, with that gear, that spec does more DPS overall. There's no difference in survivability/mobility/utility between the two specs - DPS is the only variable.

    Could that change as they get closer to T15 BiS? Possibly. But as it stands, in a real raiding environment, assa still seems to have the edge - even with T15 4P.

  8. #28
    In my opinion, what is needed is for Blizzard to…

    BUFF COMBAT…!!!

  9. #29
    The biggest problem Combat has at the moment, is that when AR/SB are up, any latency/input lag/missedGCD is a big dps loss. As an example, when I pop AR/SB, I have to manually account/guess(based on SS CP procs) how many combo points I have, since my UI doesn't update my CP fast enough in time for the next GCD.

    Also, Killing Spree remains the single most suicidal damage cooldown in the game.

  10. #30
    Also, Killing Spree remains the single most suicidal damage cooldown in the game.
    This x1000 at the moment. As fights get more mechanics you have to deal with, the worse Killing Spree gets as a cooldown. Jin'rohk (lack of pool buff), Heroic Council, Tortos, Maegara, Durumu, and Iron Qon are all fight off the top of my head that Killing Spree can be more or a hindrance than a blessing. I really can't think of a tier where Killing Spree was this deadly to yourself.

    Also, the .5 GCD is pretty awful for Combat when you're still GCD capping. One would think that a lower GCD would mean getting GCD locked less, but nope. I love that Combat tends to be faster paced than Assassination, but currently, it's just too spammy and CD reliant.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    This x1000 at the moment. As fights get more mechanics you have to deal with, the worse Killing Spree gets as a cooldown. Jin'rohk (lack of pool buff), Heroic Council, Tortos, Maegara, Durumu, and Iron Qon are all fight off the top of my head that Killing Spree can be more or a hindrance than a blessing. I really can't think of a tier where Killing Spree was this deadly to yourself.

    Also, the .5 GCD is pretty awful for Combat when you're still GCD capping. One would think that a lower GCD would mean getting GCD locked less, but nope. I love that Combat tends to be faster paced than Assassination, but currently, it's just too spammy and CD reliant.
    Killing Spree can also let one cheese mechanics, so it's a double edged sword.

    Being GCD capped is irrelevant. Why would a .5 GCD even have any value if Combat couldn't use it?

  12. #32
    Killing Spree can also let one cheese mechanics, so it's a double edged sword.
    The only mechanic Combat has actually been able to sort of cheese this tier has been Ji-kun's Down Draft, but you don't even need to worry about it as is between Shadowstep and Sprint.


    Being GCD capped is irrelevant. Why would a .5 GCD even have any value if Combat couldn't use it?
    The .5 GCD's problem vs a 1 or even .8 GCD is that it does make your rotation dps beyond fragile if you have to deal with mechanics such as running across a room or switching targets. God forbid you experience the briefest two second jump in latency during AR/SB.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    If top raiding rogues are assa then it's safe to assume that in those fights, with that gear, that spec does more DPS overall. There's no difference in survivability/mobility/utility between the two specs - DPS is the only variable.

    Could that change as they get closer to T15 BiS? Possibly. But as it stands, in a real raiding environment, assa still seems to have the edge - even with T15 4P.
    Combat does heal more with Life Leech Poison though

  14. #34
    Will be interesting to see myself as combat, it's been a while; nothing against it, i seem to be getting axes and fists and no daggers. this may be another tier that i have to switch until daggers fall into my lap.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Combat does heal more with Life Leech Poison though
    Problem with Leeching Poison is that Elusiveness is better for predictable burst damage while Cheat Death is best for RNG burst damage. I more or less only find it useful while soloing with the exception of the odd fight.

  16. #36
    Grunt Drunkhobo's Avatar
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    I will be raiding tomorrow as combat with 4pc now that a weapon finally dropped, but from what I can tell from just dungeons/scenarios/dailies it actually does less dps, but I am waiting for logs and such to prove it.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    Problem with Leeching Poison is that Elusiveness is better for predictable burst damage while Cheat Death is best for RNG burst damage. I more or less only find it useful while soloing with the exception of the odd fight.
    Yes, just stated the obvious. I too only use it for solo purposes and 3-4 fights in the current raid tier. (namely the fights where you get damage buffs and thus more healing) But a combat rogue could use it on a lot more fights I bet, as it heals for like 30-40 % more for him, than for assa.


    On topic: I'm very concerned about our specs right now... shadowcraft seems to promote combat, but all the top players stay assassination.... :/ I like both, and I just want to do the best for our raid... maybe just stick to the weapon drops then.
    Last edited by Bluegirl91; 2013-04-02 at 10:16 AM.

  18. #38
    I really want to play combat but not if it's behind by 5k+. /sigh

  19. #39
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    I'm fairly sure it's going to be behind assassination this whole tier in any real situation since it's only marginally ahead in simulation statically and has far more opportunity cost.

    Sim it out again with movement involved and the numbers reflect this.

    Also, Killme Spree.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  20. #40
    I'm still curious why Shadowcraft says combat with 4t15 is like 15k ahead of assassination. :/

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