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  1. #201
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    They might as well just tie them to a balance druid's Faerie Fire, so we can use it like a hunter's mark and designate which target we want them to stick on.

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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    If you take them to the training dummies it's fairly obvious that they switch to a new dummy just by casting Moonfire/Sunfire on a different target.
    I think they're more likely to stay on targets you have high aggro on. No conclusive evidence, though.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    If you take them to the training dummies it's fairly obvious that they switch to a new dummy just by casting Moonfire/Sunfire on a different target.
    Yeah for me it does seem like they switch, however the time they take to switch is the issue for me.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Jinrohk is clearly INC/NV as well, but w/e.
    Nope. The damage boost from Conductive Waters isn't high enough to make Nature's Vigil better than Heart of the Wild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zurine View Post
    My understanding is that I start a cast away from solar, Starfire and Starfall on the pull, hit Celestial Alignment, Moonfire, and then all three trees (because at that point I'll have Nature's Grace and most likely a meta proc and one or two trinket procs).
    Why one cast away from solar? Just start in Solar and go Starfall > Pot > CA > DoTs on all targets > FoN x 3
    Last edited by Mutheru; 2013-06-11 at 12:52 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutheru View Post
    Nope. The damage boost from Conductive Waters isn't high enough to make Nature's Vigil better than Heart of the Wild.
    In LFR it is, but that's hardly a good benchmark.

  6. #206
    the jin'rokh argument kinda depends on your guild's dps

    As you will see from fountain on wol, inc has pulled him ahead on the top spot, but also you must understand the entire fight lasts less than 3 mins. Considering the first pool isnt for like 30 seconds, means that your basing a fight from about 2:30 in which 1 min of that is in a pool with the huge burst from inc.

    Also its very gear dependant, you might just have the top ranked log because your gear is extremely good. Its hard to fully know without running the same fight with the same procs and spell usage just with the different talent. Like slippy said there are many factors that affect our dps and the talents are close and wont make a huge difference in the long run.

    Inc is definately a bigger burst in the pool.

    Also Fountain uses NV on jin'rokh, where this thread seems to suggest that its worse than hotw, i am not sure if this is really true on a fight like jin'rokh. Gonna give it a try this week in my guilds kill and see how it goes.

    But to summarize, most of the top ranked boomkins used inc, many also used NV. Zoomx rank 6 is the top boomkin to use FoN.
    Although this cant be taken to mean its the best, maybe we should look again at the calculations we obtained, because afterall, it seems to pull ahead on logs.

    Anyways, just my 2cents.

  7. #207
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    the jin'rokh argument kinda depends on your guild's dps

    As you will see from fountain on wol, inc has pulled him ahead on the top spot, but also you must understand the entire fight lasts less than 3 mins. Considering the first pool isnt for like 30 seconds, means that your basing a fight from about 2:30 in which 1 min of that is in a pool with the huge burst from inc.

    Also its very gear dependant, you might just have the top ranked log because your gear is extremely good. Its hard to fully know without running the same fight with the same procs and spell usage just with the different talent. Like slippy said there are many factors that affect our dps and the talents are close and wont make a huge difference in the long run.

    Inc is definately a bigger burst in the pool.

    Also Fountain uses NV on jin'rokh, where this thread seems to suggest that its worse than hotw, i am not sure if this is really true on a fight like jin'rokh. Gonna give it a try this week in my guilds kill and see how it goes.

    But to summarize, most of the top ranked boomkins used inc, many also used NV. Zoomx rank 6 is the top boomkin to use FoN.
    Although this cant be taken to mean its the best, maybe we should look again at the calculations we obtained, because afterall, it seems to pull ahead on logs.

    Anyways, just my 2cents.
    I agree, there are some fights where you can pinpoint one talent being better than the other, but then there's some fights where heated discussion always pops up because it's a little iffy which is best.

    I did an analysis on three logs: Shroomkin's #1 10H Jin'rokh parse, Fountaiin's #1 25H Jin'rokh parse and my own 10H Jin'rokh kill from this week. Just from the first two logs alone you can see the huge disparity between 10 and 25 man raiding, but I digress.

    Shroomkins' Logs

    It's fairly easy to calculate the damage received from talents like Incarnation, NV and HotW - or would have contributed. It's a little harder to predict the damage of FoN, but not impossible.

    Total Damage: 45,008,395
    Total Damage (during CDs): 24,519,547 (time range is http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yd...e/?s=335&e=365)

    Total Incarnation Damage = (Total Damage) - (Total Damage)/1.25 = 4,903,909 = 10.90%
    Total NV Damage = (Total Damage) - (Total Damage)/1.1 = 2,229,049 = 4.95%

    We now have our numbers of the talents he used, so let's compare them to the talents he didn't use.

    Total HotW Damage = (Total Damage - NV)*1.05 - (Total Damage - NV) = 2,138,967 = 4.76%
    Total FoN Damage = 3,228,602 = 7.45%

    To model FoN damage I went to the Zoomx log you cited and looked at the damage his trees were doing, and just cut off their damage at the point where Shroomkin would have finished his fight. We're assuming Zoomx's Treants would do roughly the same amount as Shroomkin's had he used them, but at least this is more representative than not modelling all the cooldowns/buffs present at the beginning of the fight.

    From this log, we can see Inc/NV was the best choice for the very short kill of Jin'rokh. HotW and NV are very close together, and the difference between their contributory DPS is minimal (0.19%). This is equivalent to 619 DPS overall. Therefore, this test is inconclusive for NV vs. HotW, as the two talents are too close together.

    However, the spread between Incarnation and FoN is significant. A 2.45% contributory DPS spread between the two turns out to be 8291 DPS overall. This is mainly due to cooldowns/buffs being present for the first pool which will multiply against Incarnation very well and FoN not as much. Haste will make CA damage skyrocket, whereas haste buffs will only add additional casts to FoN if they reach a breakpoint. As well, they have a chance of going weird if NG/meta/hero are all aligned together. The shorter fight also favours Incarnation as FoN can be seen as passive over a whole encounter. Also, we can't exclude Incarnation benefitting from the pools and FoN not. Consequently, we see a large disparity between the two talents.

    Moving on!

    Fountaiin's Logs

    Total Damage: 67,505,111
    Total Damage (during CDs): 25,023,931 (during Incarnation), 34,160,591 (during NV)

    Total Incarnation Damage = 5,004,786 = 7.41%
    Total NV Damage = 3,105,508 = 4.60%

    Total HotW Damage = 3,219,980 = 4.76%
    Total FoN Damage = 3,561,107 = 5.39%

    From these logs we see HotW and NV flip-flopped - but like I said in the previous log analysis, the gap is too close to make conclusions. A mere 617 DPS separates these guys, less than Shroomkin's logs even though Fountaiin did 14% more DPS, and it's in HotW's favour. Note that Fountaiin's kill was 42 seconds longer than Shroomkin's, and would have contributed to the HotW/NV swap. Regardless, the two talents are essentially even.

    Incarnation and FoN kept their disparity though. 2.02% stands between the L60 talents, a bit lower than the previous logs as well. I'd say this is due to the longer fight length.

    Finally, we get to my run-of-the-mill logs.

    Slippykins' Logs

    Total Damage: 75,395,458
    Total Damage (during CDs): 16,700,193

    Total Incarnation Damage = 4,175,048 = 5.54%
    Total HotW Damage = 3,590,260 = 4.76%

    To find NV damage we need to add in another use between the 3 min CD phases, and during this period 5,165,853 damage was dealt.

    Total NV Damage = 2,082,481 = 2.90%
    Total FoN Damage = 4,026,735 = 5.35%

    We can see a marked difference in HotW and NV this time. Because my fight had a length of 4:38, the initial burst of NV would have mattered less, and the lengthiness of the fight contributed to a lot more HotW damage. A 1.86% damage difference, equating to 5026 DPS. Quite a big difference when the fight length increases. This brings about a different way of thinking about the two talents - instead of comparing them on a damage mod basis, we could instead compare them on fight length. As fight length increases, HotW increases more than NV. Could definitely be something we pay special attention to in 5.4.

    FoN and Incarnation closed their gap as well - in fact, they closed it so much that they're essentially the same. Only 0.19% damage is in Incarnation's favour, meaning 513 DPS. This is an important fact as well, in that FoN also approaches (and most likely surpasses) Incarnation as the fight length goes up.

    Conclusions

    We can make some very important conclusions from these limited results. While I've only shown three samples of data, the calculation of Incarnation/NV/HotW contributory damage is very accurate since we are only dealing with damage modifiers over certain periods. FoN is a rough estimation based on treants during burst (first ~minute or so) and then more steady treants (anything after that) from Zoomx's log. Nonetheless, we come to two points:

    1. Fight length plays an important part in talent choice. Shorter fights will favour our cooldowns heavily (Incarnation & NV), whereas longer fights will make our "passive" talents better (HotW & FoN). This means that the top logs at the beginning of the tier will most likely use the passive talents, and by the end of the tier will be mostly made up of the cooldown talents. It also means citing logs at the end of a tier with cooldown talents is not corollary to them being the best talents overall, like you said. While fights themselves do play an important part when choosing between Incarnation and FoN, fight length is also a variable that should be considered.

    2. We can't always rely on models for talent choices. That might sound in opposition to what I normally say, but it's true. Cooldown stacking and extra buffs being present during cooldowns can have a huge impact on the total damage that cooldown does, and is either a) not accounted for entirely in WrathCalcs, or b) difficult to analyse or model correctly in SimCraft. Since NV and HotW can be easily assessed through logs, I don't see why we shouldn't do it more often - the numbers should be very accurate and will give us a practical way to compare the two. The only real outlier is FoN, since it isn't a flat damage modifier, but maybe we can come up with some generalisations on fight length/fight type to equate it to Incarnation. Something to work on, at least.

    Anyway, that's about all I can gather from those logs. Overall I agree with your assertions Ragingblaze. I think we can definitely learn more by analysing our damage from different standpoints, and combining the knowledge we gain from them all. Definitely some food for thought, at the minimum.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-06-12 at 03:39 AM.

  8. #208
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Had Fountaiin's kill been ~30 seconds longer he would have gotten a 2nd Incarnation, which should only make Incarnation even better. Meaning it's not as simple as the longer the fight, the worse Incarnation becomes in comparison to FoN. It's extremely hard to model, but I think going forward for progression next tier FoN will be used a lot. These super fast kills simply won't exist until farm plus if the 4pc bonus doesn't change, FoN actually sees a benefit from it whereas Incarnation does not.

  9. #209
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Had Fountaiin's kill been ~30 seconds longer he would have gotten a 2nd Incarnation, which should only make Incarnation even better. Meaning it's not as simple as the longer the fight, the worse Incarnation becomes in comparison to FoN. It's extremely hard to model, but I think going forward for progression next tier FoN will be used a lot. These super fast kills simply won't exist until farm plus if the 4pc bonus doesn't change, FoN actually sees a benefit from it whereas Incarnation does not.
    Yeah definitely, the short kills are only apparent for the end of the tier like I said, and only serve as ranking fodder.

    He would get another Incarnation in, but it wouldn't be as powerful as the first one. Additionally, as more and more of those cycles come in it dampens the effect of the initial burst and makes it approach the values we see in WrathCalcs. So it kinda has spikes of average damage each time you pop it, but then deteriorates as time to the next use goes on.

    But you're right, it's not as simple as a plain, linear "at x time FoN will be better than Incarnation." It'll follow a general trend, but that trend will be bumpy. Looking forward to seeing the fights in 5.4 and if FoN will take a prime talent spot.

    I'm not too happy about the 4-piece, but that's for another thread.

  10. #210
    Thanks slippy, great analysis. I feel that if your guild is killing Jin'rokh before the third pool, then inc will probably bring higher dps, if your raid stacks CD's properly (and your not super unlucky with kiting orbs and missing AMS). Also i know of some guilds which stack in lightning storm popping raid cd's like SL totem which will essentially allow you to hard cast, thus probably favoring inc again.

    Overall your right theres not much difference and it really depends on so many other variables, the talents contribute less than these other variables do.

  11. #211
    I'd like to emphasize something Stommped aluded to earlier when speaking about Jin'rokh. The optimal talent choice (and playstyle even moreso) when you are trying to get the highest parse possible is often different than the optimal talent choice when you want to kill the boss, and different still when you want to have the highest average parses.

    When the talents are close (and there is no general, well known consensus on which is best, drawing all the top players) I would expect to see Incarnation be used in almost every top parse. This is because luck can lead you to having all of your trinkets and procs for almost the entire duration of Incarnation. In contrast, due to the charge-based nature of treants and shorter cooldown, it is far far less likely to have them all available for each use. This means that although, for example, the top 5 logs will use Incarnation, the next 10 or 15 may all use treants. And, if you averaged the individual logs of each of those 15 or 20 players, the top 5 parsers may well have a lower average DPS than the next several.

    As I mentioned, playstyle factors into it as well. On Heroic Twin Consorts, Incarnation will likely see the best parses because it lines up perfectly with phase 2, allowing you to use it with Hurricane/WM to nuke all the adds on transition. Clearly, this will be the biggest personal DPS gain. However, this won't necessarily be the biggest gain for your raid. If your guild is able to kill the adds "in time" without you, then all your AoE does is "steal" damage from other players, some of which may have a lower opportunity cost to their AoE. Thus, the extra damage you do with Incarnation, though a personal DPS increase, could still be a raid DPS loss. If all you care about is meters (or if your raid needs the AoE), then the right answer is to use Incarnation. If you are still progressing and haven't killed the boss, your higher damage might be making the fight harder.

    TLDR; "best" and "most damage" aren't always the same thing.

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