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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Facts would make you educated and make your opinion informed. You have none. I sincerely doubt you could can find hundreds of posts but even if you could I don't accept that as evidence. Every time I have some critcism of something (say daily quests) I always get told that I'm really a minority and the forums in general are a minority and that they don't count overall.

    I find it hard to swallow forums as evidence or information when it's ROUTINELY denied as such.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 11:43 PM ----------



    NOrmal mode is for less and less players. That's the point. Their numbers aren't growing. You could argue that but I don't see players returning to normal mode en masse or even more than a handful. The trend is more likely that Normal mode will suffer more and more attrition.
    To me the part where you admit to always being told your a minority says that you sir are most likely a forum troll that just likes to annoy and bug people for fun, if the content is to hard and you can't be bothered to get the gear to make you competitive just because its the previous tier play LFR or just stop altogether, I'm sure you won't be missed.

    The expansion isn't an insta catch up one as has been states many times, I for one welcome it, if you want to see the bosses put the effort in, it's akin to picking up a game like final fantasy 7 and expecting to be able to just start from the last disk. If you haven't put in the effort previously blizzard has put in mechanics to help catch up including increased till chance and LFR drops from the previous tier. If you can't be bothered to make the effort most others have to see and clear the content I have no sympathy and doubt anyone else has either.

  2. #162
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Normal modes are still important to bridge the gap. Having raiding either be stupidly easy LFR style or brutal wouldn't be a good idea except for the top end of the heroic guilds. The ramp up from normal to heroic is really good for the guilds that will end up doing heroics but only half or less before the next tier (going back to that difficulty curve you mentioned).
    making normal content so hard that it pushes players into lfr isn't a good idea either because you end up with a situation where their's really no point in making normals anymore. It's to hard to recruit players for them and it's to hard to start up because nobody is doing them. You may as well just make heroic raids like challenge modes where the gear scales to whatever and then just have lfr. No bridge to gap needed for that.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    making normal content so hard that it pushes players into lfr isn't a good idea either because you end up with a situation where their's really no point in making normals anymore. It's to hard to recruit players for them and it's to hard to start up because nobody is doing them. You may as well just make heroic raids like challenge modes where the gear scales to whatever and then just have lfr. No bridge to gap needed for that.
    The only people being "pushed" into LFR are the people whose goals align with it. Sorry, but if you don't want to deal with mechanics, you need to go to LFR because that was designed for that. The "problem" that you are describing is just that there aren't all that many people who are interested in learning mechanics and stuff but have no intention of ever progression to heroics. That honestly doesn't surprise me because I would think that most of the people putting serious time into normal/heroic wouldn't be very happy with their time investment if they didn't get into some heroics.

    The gap bridging isn't about gear... so no that wouldn't work.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    making normal content so hard that it pushes players into lfr isn't a good idea either because you end up with a situation where their's really no point in making normals anymore. It's to hard to recruit players for them and it's to hard to start up because nobody is doing them. You may as well just make heroic raids like challenge modes where the gear scales to whatever and then just have lfr. No bridge to gap needed for that.
    It really isn't hard to recruit for any raid if you have a guild with players that have even just a semi - decent skill set, my guild is a 25 man, we are doing okay for the hours we raid, people say that they are meant to be dying but I have seen no evidence of that either.
    I think your statements about normal raids are the same, they won't die out, people will still raid them, those that were casually doing them will just switch to LFR as it easier for them but the people who want even just a small challenge will go and seek out a guild or decent pug to do normals with.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    The only people being "pushed" into LFR are the people whose goals align with it. Sorry, but if you don't want to deal with mechanics, you need to go to LFR because that was designed for that. The "problem" that you are describing is just that there aren't all that many people who are interested in learning mechanics and stuff but have no intention of ever progression to heroics. That honestly doesn't surprise me because I would think that most of the people putting serious time into normal/heroic wouldn't be very happy with their time investment if they didn't get into some heroics.

    The gap bridging isn't about gear... so no that wouldn't work.
    Okay and I'm saying that's more and more players on a daily basis. I'm sorry this whole "goals align" shit is meaningless. Players are going to do what's fun to them. Fewer and fewer players are finding normals fun and more and more are going to lfr.

    The bridging is all about gear... the guys running heroic raids by and large don't have problems with mechanics so that would work exactly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 12:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by st1r2 View Post
    It really isn't hard to recruit for any raid if you have a guild with players that have even just a semi - decent skill set, my guild is a 25 man, we are doing okay for the hours we raid, people say that they are meant to be dying but I have seen no evidence of that either.
    I think your statements about normal raids are the same, they won't die out, people will still raid them, those that were casually doing them will just switch to LFR as it easier for them but the people who want even just a small challenge will go and seek out a guild or decent pug to do normals with.

    It is increasingly harder and harder to recruit REGARDLESS of what your current raid make up is. This is in part because the developers refuse to do anything about server populations but it is also in part because the pool of raiders has dwindled and gotten smaller and smaller because LFR now presents them with easier content and less hassle or stress.

    Normal raids will die out, unless they are made more appealing and more accessible. It's a snow ball effect that will continue to cause participation rates to decline. If people seek "challenge" then blizzard can accommodate this in the same way they did with challenge modes. Normal raids need to be medium difficulty. They are not by and large and that's why participation rates are declining and why people are running for lfr. Blizzards needs to actually understand PROGRESSION and not just rip the knob off difficulty spikes.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-03-30 at 12:18 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #166
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    Recruitment is easier now than ever before with the multitude of tools out there.

    There are also many guilds that are strong and will remain so in the future and will keep running normals.

    Normals are medium difficulty, people are just used to having LFR zergs and DS now and expect all raids to be faceroll, the truth is more were unhappy with how easy they were than there are that are unhappy with how 'difficult' normals are now. The only difference is your expected to be able to move and think again rather than stand still and smash out a rotation which will make those that don't know their class or have the ability to move stand out for being poor.

    Just because you have such negative experiences doesn't mean it's the same for everyone and certainly doesn't mean normals will crash.

    You seem to be negative in a lot of other threads to, if your so unhappy stop trolling and unsub maybe
    Last edited by st1r2; 2013-03-30 at 12:44 AM.

  7. #167
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    "Multitude of tools" LOL

    I mean even if that were true and their were a "multitude of tools" it wouldn't matter because you have NOTHING to work with.

    Normals are not medium difficulty by any stretch of the imagination. They are currently what the developers have defined as normal but the dwindling numbers of people participating in normals suggests that they aren't medium for any serious chunk of the player base.

    I'm not trolling but I understand when an opinion is different from yours and also happens to be very correct that it's just easier to classify it as trolling. Furthermore telling people to unsub will also lead to less normal raiders as well. The position you people are defending will kill normal raiding.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #168
    Firelands was perfect (beside needing either more bosses or a companion raid ... 12-15 is a great number of bosses to aim for a tier). If it had 14 bosses, I have no doubt you'd have included it with the other two.

    ICC was great once all was unlocked. It had atmosphere, though as seen in the thread, not to everyone's liking.

    Ulduar was similar on feel ... atmosphere.


    Choice is the best thing you can do for the player. It is a shame a lot of companies think you don't deserve it.

  9. #169
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    I guarantee you normal raiding will remain strong for the guilds that want more than LFR, the bosses are medium, I just think your gauging them on the easier recent content. If you can't carry out strategies you shouldn't be in normals anyway and would bet my house if you had logs of your wipes you were not executing the fight properly.

    For the players that want the game easy, yes they will stop with the normals and raid LFR, if that's their skill level then so be it, but for every player that stops raiding normal because its to hard there will be more coming back because it actually has a bit of challenge involved again and is actually requiring a brain again on some fights.

    People shouldn't just expect that they get to see every boss in every difficulty without actually working at their character and how to play. People get out what they put in and that's the way it should be, if you can't be bothered dont cry about it.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    "Multitude of tools" LOL

    I mean even if that were true and their were a "multitude of tools" it wouldn't matter because you have NOTHING to work with.

    Normals are not medium difficulty by any stretch of the imagination. They are currently what the developers have defined as normal but the dwindling numbers of people participating in normals suggests that they aren't medium for any serious chunk of the player base.

    I'm not trolling but I understand when an opinion is different from yours and also happens to be very correct that it's just easier to classify it as trolling. Furthermore telling people to unsub will also lead to less normal raiders as well. The position you people are defending will kill normal raiding.
    I guarantee you normal raiding will remain strong for the guilds that want more than LFR, the bosses are medium, I just think your gauging them on the easier recent content. If you can't carry out strategies you shouldn't be in normals anyway and would bet my house if you had logs of your wipes you were not executing the fight properly.

    For the players that want the game easy, yes they will stop with the normals and raid LFR, if that's their skill level then so be it, but for every player that stops raiding normal because its to hard there will be more coming back because it actually has a bit of challenge involved again and is actually requiring a brain again on some fights.

    People shouldn't just expect that they get to see every boss in every difficulty without actually working at their character and how to play. People get out what they put in and that's the way it should be, if you can't be bothered dont cry about it.

    And by multitude of tools I mean there are numerous sites and forums you can use to find players that fit with you guild, but again, if you can't be bothered with making the effort to look, dont cry about it.

  11. #171
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    The problem I keep seeing in this thread is this claim of Horridon as a wall as if there's some loot pinatas behind it the normal mode raider can't reach.

    Here's the issue: If you can't handle the mechanics of Horridon, you can't handle the mechanics of Council, or Tortos, or Megaera, or Ji-kun. The only difference is that the onus of responsibility might be less on some of those bosses (Ji-kun only requires 3-4 good nest killers while everyone else can do something on the main platform). If your healers can't heal through an occasional venom bolt volley + tank damage, they're not going to be able to heal through Quake Stomp, Rampage, or Sandstorm, or even Quills for that matter.

    I have a feeling people have this perception that Council is vastly easier than Horridon, or Tortos. We 2 shot Horridon the first time we saw him, and wiped more on Council and Tortos (all less than 10 wipes, but still). We were a 16/16H guild last tier, so that's expected of our raiders since we didn't do the PTR and people were adjusting to new fights. And people come up with silly strats like "Just group them all up in Council and dps through the healing add!" and normal mode raiders stuck on Horridon think "Oh man, if I could get to the boss, there'd be free purples everywhere." The problem is, if you can't DPS the adds down in a timely manner on Horridon, the cheese strategy on Council isn't going to work either.

    I have no problem with a linear raid in theory, as people have pointed out in this thread, ICC and Ulduar just were an illusion of many paths. Linear raids are a problem when there is uneven scaling between encounters (something you mentioned yourself), the problem is the only unevenness in scaling in ToT is between Jin'rokh and Horridon. Well, maybe Primordius and TC are too easy for their place in the raid, but not easy overall.

  12. #172
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    I do enjoy non-linear progression significantly more than linear progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it's not. It's really not. Icc was FAR more accessible than ToT. ICC had a much better difficulty curve. It had much better lore. The fights were more engaging. Throne is just wall after wall after wall designed to FORCE players who should be running ToT to go back and do previous raids in an effort to further gate ToT and make sure it lasts as long as possible. Gear check after gear check boss.
    Who should be running ToT? Blizzard didn't want raids to be obsolete the moment new content came out as they have been the last couple of expansions, so part of that is probably intentional. If you're having significant problems towards the end of the raid and your entire raid is above 500 ilvl, yes, you may need a bit more gear otherwise you may just need to elevate your play.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Normals are not medium difficulty by any stretch of the imagination. They are currently what the developers have defined as normal but the dwindling numbers of people participating in normals suggests that they aren't medium for any serious chunk of the player base.
    Normals are closer to easy difficulty level in comparison to other MMOs. What exactly is it that you find so hard about normal mode content?

    I'm not trying to be snarky; I'm just genuinely wondering what it is that you find difficult.
    Last edited by Celista; 2013-03-30 at 02:30 AM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Okay and I'm saying that's more and more players on a daily basis. I'm sorry this whole "goals align" shit is meaningless. Players are going to do what's fun to them. Fewer and fewer players are finding normals fun and more and more are going to lfr.

    The bridging is all about gear... the guys running heroic raids by and large don't have problems with mechanics so that would work exactly.
    You just said what I said in different words... Their goal is to have fun, so by saying their goals align with LFR that means they will have fun in that environment. The people that stopped doing normals and just do LFR are doing that because it is the best way to meet their goal. Dealing with lots of mechanics and having to do things wasn't what was fun for them, so they went to LFR where they can do the things they like without dealing with that.

    The thing about normal modes is that a very large amount of the guilds who do them will clear normal before the next tier and then will get a couple of heroics which is making true normal only guilds really rare. That is why there needs to be the bridge of normal mode. It isn't about the gear. Sure the Methods and Blood Legions could deal without normal mode ramp up, but there were a really huge amount of guilds with somewhere between 1 and 15 heroics down last tier.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    You just said what I said in different words... Their goal is to have fun, so by saying their goals align with LFR that means they will have fun in that environment. The people that stopped doing normals and just do LFR are doing that because it is the best way to meet their goal. Dealing with lots of mechanics and having to do things wasn't what was fun for them, so they went to LFR where they can do the things they like without dealing with that.

    The thing about normal modes is that a very large amount of the guilds who do them will clear normal before the next tier and then will get a couple of heroics which is making true normal only guilds really rare. That is why there needs to be the bridge of normal mode. It isn't about the gear. Sure the Methods and Blood Legions could deal without normal mode ramp up, but there were a really huge amount of guilds with somewhere between 1 and 15 heroics down last tier.
    I don't understand that at all. When I run LFR, I get frustrated because it is so incredibly boring...mechanics is what makes the encounter exciting and challenging. Honestly I kindof feel bad for you if you would rather mindlessly pew pew at the boss and LFR is your only experience with the raid encounter. It's really watered down...to each their own, I guess.

    I don't think there needs to be a bridge to normal mode more than there is--there's LFR gear, and there is 522 ilvl valor gear. That is a pretty good bridge. You could perhaps offer players more incentives for running normal mode/hardmodes, though, that might encourage more casual players to make the leap to normal mode raiding (mounts/titles/etc).

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I don't understand that at all. When I run LFR, I get frustrated because it is so incredibly boring...mechanics is what makes the encounter exciting and challenging. Honestly I kindof feel bad for you if you would rather mindlessly pew pew at the boss and LFR is your only experience with the raid encounter. It's really watered down...to each their own, I guess.

    I don't think there needs to be a bridge to normal mode more than there is--there's LFR gear, and there is 522 ilvl valor gear. That is a pretty good bridge. You could perhaps offer players more incentives for running normal mode/hardmodes, though, that might encourage more casual players to make the leap to normal mode raiding (mounts/titles/etc).
    Honestly, I agree with you. I think LFR is boring and tedious. However, lots of people do not want to put in the time to learn fights by wiping a large number of times because wiping that much isn't fun for them, but if thats what they want, whatever.

    You misunderstood that second underlined segment as I said bridge "of" normal mode, not "to" normal mode. Its a bridge to get to heroic rather than starting there. I don't think removing normal and having you go from LFR to heroic would be a good idea.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Honestly, I agree with you. I think LFR is boring and tedious. However, lots of people do not want to put in the time to learn fights by wiping a large number of times because wiping that much isn't fun for them, but if thats what they want, whatever.

    You misunderstood that second underlined segment as I said bridge "of" normal mode, not "to" normal mode. Its a bridge to get to heroic rather than starting there. I don't think removing normal and having you go from LFR to heroic would be a good idea.
    Oh, so I did. And yeah, I agree. Lol.

    I do understand why some players only run LFR, though, if they have the serious life/time constraints that tend to creep up on you after college and whatnot...LFR is not perfect, but it is something at least.

  18. #178
    Funny, when ICC was content, people called it "FAIL of the LICH KING" Now, it's one of the best raids out there? I understand if we want an instance where we have options but ICC wasn't all fun like you all make it out to be. Apart from the fact that it was gated, the difficulty was all over the place. The second boss was one of the most difficult boss in the instance, it was retarded on Heroic. Blood wing was piss cake on normal and hard while PP was levels above. The green dragon was easy and Sindragosa was a nice warm up before LK. Ulduar wasn't all that linear in difficulty either. Cat lady was miles harder than Hodir, Freya and Mimron were miles ahead of Vezax.

    Oh btw, I want to see the pug groups that was killing PP @ 0% on 25man.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I did it for almost a full year. I loved it. One of the best raids they ever made. So much for "nobody"

    On the other hand "nobody" who's currently doing ToT will tell you its the best raid.
    Was it the best raid, cause it was so easy towards the end, that everyone had access to it? I mean, we had ICC with 30% buff for ages and nobody who actually progressed pre-nerf thought it was still funny after 1 year of doing it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 11:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Delhunt View Post
    Funny, when ICC was content, people called it "FAIL of the LICH KING" Now, it's one of the best raids out there? I understand if we want an instance where we have options but ICC wasn't all fun like you all make it out to be. Apart from the fact that it was gated, the difficulty was all over the place. The second boss was one of the most difficult boss in the instance, it was retarded on Heroic. Blood wing was piss cake on normal and hard while PP was levels above. The green dragon was easy and Sindragosa was a nice warm up before LK. Ulduar wasn't all that linear in difficulty either. Cat lady was miles harder than Hodir, Freya and Mimron were miles ahead of Vezax.

    Oh btw, I want to see the pug groups that was killing PP @ 0% on 25man.

    This^^ I dare to say, that no pugs did PP 25 man pre nerf, it was just that hard. Imo one of the reasons the OP thinks that ICC was better, was that the 10 man version of ICC was a lot easier than today's 10 man content - for obvious reasons. Back in Wrath 10 man was for the most part rather faceroll and the rewards was less ofc.

    Today 10 and 25 offer the same ilvl loot (although not the same amount) and some fights are easier on 10 and some are easier on 25 but 10 man has become a lot harder since Wrath for sure.

    Now, you can't just walk into current raid with a shit setup and no fucking clue and expect to kill bosses. You have to know, what you're doing and as many others have said several times now - if you can't defeat Horridon due to punishing mechanics, you won't defeat the following bosses either.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    lol you go on about how the rest of us have to accept, that some people don't agree and think that Horridon is horribly tuned, while you at the same time don't accept our opinions - that's just lol.
    Erm, no. Nice try. I've been perfectly accepting of your opinion, that you're obviously in a decent guild and found Horridon pretty standard fare for a tier's early boss. Maybe your players are above average, maybe they were better geared, maybe you had a good composition in your 10-man group, maybe you got lucky.

    I've never, not once, denied that. All I'm telling you is that there are a number of guilds who, through their history, didn't expect to have such issues on the second boss in a raid tier and that I think the tuning is to blame.

    Honestly, this argument is literally "I know you are, but what am I?".

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Also, l2 read kkthx. I didn't comment on the amount of guilds with ilvl 496 ish gear killed Normal Horridon within the first week, cause I don't know. What I said, was that if you gave raiders who actually killed Heroic bosses in T14 the same ilvl gear as some of these guilds have, the boss would still go down.
    And you're basing that opinion on... What?

    "Kkthx".

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    You seem to take this way too serious, all because we don't agree with you? I'm suddenly de-humanizing you - Get over yourself......
    I dislike Internet tough guys elevating themselves with talk of "you people". We've never met, nor played together, so you have no idea what type of person i am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Yes, you ranked 18 as a Protection Warrior - well done. But everyone knows, that one person doing well isn't going to make the boss roll over, if the rest are being crap. Not saying your raid group is crap, this is generally speaking.
    So I'm not an average faceroller "whining" for nerfs because I'm bad? That's all I wanted to get across to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    You may not be able to change anything in order for the boss to die, but your raid leader sure as hell can. You're 3 healing it, with the Resto Druid doing less than what most tanks can do. This is what I and others have been talking about. Lack of skill, lack of awareness, bad strategy (as in 3 healing it, when you then don't have enough dps to kill the adds fast enough) are all things that just add up.
    Nobody sensible ever disagreed with this sentiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I don't know nor care what standards you used to raid at but if you were anything serious, you should know that most times when bosses aren't dying, it's not because it's overtuned, it's because the players aren't skilled or geared enough.
    This is the very first time I've seen such issues with the second boss of a raid tier when people shouldn't have been grossly undergeared for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    And as many others have said, if you can't kill Normal Horridon, you have the CHOICE of going back to T14 Heroic.
    Having to kill the previous tier on heroic should not be a gearing requirement for normal mode.

    That's objectively bad design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Yeah and you know what else people on the internet do? Make baseless claims. You are just assuming they lied because you want to think that. Did you check out all the people in that thread saying that? Doubt it. And you are the one who can't look past their own experiences.
    Baseless claims? I'm going off the wowprogress statistics for that first week, which is about as accurate as it gets. If you think MMO-C forum posters are going to be honest, you're being incredibly naive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    The ones clearing it are the ones who are actually working our their strat and adapting to mechanics. Our alt/social raid went in there with ~485-490 and did it because they know what they are doing. If you want more gear, there are ways to get over 500 without killing Horridron. Those 503 guilds you mention wouldn't have been able to kill it either if they played like the people stuck on it and did a piss poor job managing fairly simple mechanics (kick this, dispel that, don't stand there).
    There's a lot to be said for this, actually. It's amazing how simple a fight becomes after you've actually killed it, so I'm not surprised at all that your alts went in and did it. In saying that, you can't forget that your guild is probably composed of above average players if they've already moved into the central part of the instance or beyond.

    My biggest gripe is that the "options" you describe for upping your gear are either doing old content guilds have already completed, and trusting to RNG. It's not a great way to pace your progression, is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Hmm we must have different definitions of whining. People coming to the forums saying how Horridron is overtuned when it is just their raid trying to ignore mechanics like they don't matter sounds like whining to me.
    No, not a different definition. You just treat a complaint, regardless of how valid, as "whining"; probably because you like to project a certain self-image through Internet forums. It's cool, though. There are many of you out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Actually Ony 10/25m did have stuff that appeared and you could have to deal with those big adds and Ony at the same time. Doesn't matter though. A cleave is one of the most simple mechanics in all of WoW raiding and even some dungeons. Thats like saying an interruptable spell with a 10 second cast that 1 shots some one is overtuned. Sure the damage is high, but that is balanced with how easy it is to deal with.
    There was a significant difference between Onyxia and Horridon. I'm not sure why you're sticking to this example, but I expect it's because it paints the debate in a light that makes your point look more relevant than it actually is. I'll tell you what, let's take Horridon on a more individual basis:

    1) Avoid Sand Traps, poison puddles, ice orbs and totems (counted once, as they're all the same thing).
    2) Dispel or heal through the blazing debuff from the Farraki (as well as poisons and diseases on later doors).
    3) Dispel or deal with the stun from the basilisks.
    4) Target switch and burn down Effusions.
    5) Target switch and burn down Venomancers.
    6) Interrupt Venomancers correctly (same with Amani shamans).
    7) Heal through split-aggro on the Drakkari door due to non-conventional threat tables.
    8) Don't get cleaved by Amani bears.

    That's just the doors.

    1) Manage Horridon's charge correctly (positioning can get lumped in with this).
    2) Heal through the piercing debuff (tanks obviously mitigate this, too).
    3) Taunt-swap mobs that are still up so the tank-swap can happen on Horridon.

    All this is going on while the first eight points are cycled through. Then we get to:

    1) Pick up the Warlord and save DPS cooldowns for him; heavy damage to heal through.
    2) Heal through the AoE which gets worse if DPS is a bit slow (or someone died).
    3) Kill Horridon when the tank damage ramps up after the warlord dies, potentially with puddles or totems around.

    Now, you'll probably go through this list and type "easy" after each one. And that's fine. But none of these mechanics are trivial enough to ignore, and each (if they stack up or happen at bad times for your raid group) can induce a wipe.

    Here's my question: How many other bosses, the second in their respective tiers, had this much going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    You are full of crap. Lots of people in the 496-498 range killed him the first week. Hell, my guild was only at 500.
    Not according to wowprogress. What are you basing your opinion on? I'm genuinely curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Now maybe a majority weren't, but whatever. It was completely doable in that gear. You had ample leeway... how much leeway do you want? You can live through a 4 stack of poison, do you want a 10 stack to be survivable? At that point you might as well remove the poison entirely. Same thing with the other mechanics.
    I don't recall saying it wasn't doable. I'm saying that, statistically, it was very, very widely struggled with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    What comp did you regularly run with where no one could do 5k? Lots of classes could, it just wasn't equally easy for all of them. Though I guess I did misunderstand riplimb and rageface... boss was so trivial even on heroic I didn't really care.
    Meh, Shannox was ridiculous. In fact, you could make the argument that he was easier on heroic. As for Ignis and Shatter, you needed a 5k hit (IIRC) on demand, and actually most classes lacked the ability to do it; we didn't have a shaman, so we relied heavily on a Marksmanship hunter.

    My point is that he could have been a wall for some guilds, but he never was because you could skip him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    What do you mean to me? Its to everyone. If you take away mechanics where you switch off the boss to do trivial tasks, you end up with LFR or something even easier. If you expect to not do those things and succeed, they made a difficulty for that. If you reduce normal to the point where you can tunnel the boss and ignore everything else, what would you say is the point in having that separate from LFR?
    This is the best question you've asked, actually, because I honestly don't have an answer for you. Personally, as far as my guild is concerned, we're progressing nicely enough; our second night on Tortos is tomorrow which, given the length of time the tier will still be live for, is about right (though, clearly, I think Horridon is too much for a second, non-linear boss).

    But the role of "normal mode" raiding is actually pretty difficult to accurately gauge. I mean, if we compare the past raids to the present as well as Blizzard's expectation management, we're starting to run into a wall of a different sort. I reckon "heroics are for the hardcore, LFR is for casuals" is much too simple a divide that, for better or worse, wasn't required in WotLK. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that WotLK was SO popular because of the difficulty curves that allowed you to kill multiple bosses, but the top players still had effort to put in.

    I'm very interested in continuing this debate with you, actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

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