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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Weakest194 View Post
    armory link please... the report tells me you are wearing leveling greens, i just wanna see for myself
    Read the OP.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Read the OP.
    You're either undergeared or unskilled. A standard Backstab in Tyrannical should crit for roughly 30-40K with Sanguinary Vein up. It will hit harder with cooldowns popped and the like.

    You're obviously not even level 90 since your Recount doesn't show Shadow Blades (lvl 87) damage so why are you even complaining about 7k Backstabs? At level 85, a 7K Backstab is roughly 20% of someone's health.

  3. #23
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Hahahahhahahaha, NO.

    Just queue up some 2s, come across Rogue/Healer, and see what % health you are at when you finally get to control your character after the rogue opened on you. I'd be amazed if it's above 50%.

    I've been ambushed, with 68.8% resil, 15% D stance for 75k, ive been Eviscerated for 125k, Ive been taken to 30% in D Stance with 420k health in a 5s cheapshot by a lone rogue. Rogue damage is superb if not borderline OP.
    Last edited by Korgoth; 2013-03-27 at 06:08 PM.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    You're either undergeared or unskilled. A standard Backstab in Tyrannical should crit for roughly 30-40K with Sanguinary Vein up. It will hit harder with cooldowns popped and the like.

    You're obviously not even level 90 since your Recount doesn't show Shadow Blades (lvl 87) damage so why are you even complaining about 7k Backstabs? At level 85, a 7K Backstab is roughly 20% of someone's health.
    Again, what part of skill is there to pressing a button?

    This thread isn't a claim that rogue damage is weak. This thread is a question, which you'd know if you read the OP. Don't be a dick about it. I'll make it bold so even you can understand it.

    I'm asking this because I'm just objectively doing less damage than anyone I've fought. I just started playing this game again, and I'm hitting less on my rogue than I was during Cataclysm. I'm not super geared or anything, but is gear really so important that my 6k backstabs actually do damage? I can't imagine gear would quadruple my damage or anything.

    It just seems so strange that I can be hit by 100k conflagrates and bladestorm can tick for 20k, while my ambush is only criting for 15k?

    Is it a gear thing and this game is just even more gear dependent than it used to be, or do rogues just have shit for damage?
    Last edited by Larynx; 2013-03-27 at 05:58 PM.
    WoD updated Disc Priest Guide http://i.imgur.com/eOlZz9N.png

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Again, what part of skill is there to pressing a button?

    This thread isn't a claim that rogue damage is weak. This thread is a question, which you'd know if you read the OP. Don't be a dick about it. I'll make it bold so even you can understand it.
    My lord. Do you not understand damage boosting abilities like Sanguinary Veins and Expose Weakness? How about the idea that you should pop your cooldowns as well? How about selecting the right type of dagger and gearing properly? All of these are skill based which increase backstab damage and has nothing to do with pressing a button hard enough.

    So if you're not claiming rogue damage is weak, what exactly are you complaining about? Every single class has always been gear dependent. No one is going to do crap damage if you're walking around in greens. Show me a crafted blue lv 90 rogue that only crits 7k with backstab.

    You're either in leveling greens (not even level 90 greens) or not level 90 at all. No one geared properly has damage that low.

  6. #26
    Regarding Ambush damage, in Cata we had talents which made our Ambush always crit which was awesome because during a Dance we could put out good damage. But I think since we lost the +60% crit to Ambush, they buffed its damage.

  7. #27
    Very much a gear thing judging by your damage. I can't see an armoury link anywhere so I can't see what weapons you're using, but malevolent 2/2 498 weapons make such a huge difference to your damage overall.

    A rogue with all CDs up who gets a little lucky with crits is one of the hardest hitting things in the game atm. It might not a massive 200k number, but a bunch of 20-40k's do add up, especially when you're chain stunned for the duration.

    Rogues have the potential to go completely all in, with all CDs and a smokebomb, all while cloaked. If your trinket is down, you can easily be solo'd in the middle of a 3s game in 4-5s.

    If you're honestly struggling with damage, and your gear is good, then you need to look into pooling energy, using CDs right and reforging correctly. Rogues might not have good AoE or huge numbers, but their single target damage with CDs up is pretty damn good.

  8. #28
    Do you have your SnD up? Does your target has a bleed on (rupture or garrote - hemo doesn't count for sanguinary veins)? Ambush also allows you to bypass 70% of the armor for a short period of time if I'm not mistaken.

    And as mentioned above pooling energy is really important as well for sub, sitting on a guy spamming hemo/backstab won't do too much.

    It sounds silly but these things are important and you could really see a difference.

    My 2 cents
    Last edited by Gnu; 2013-03-27 at 06:28 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    My lord. Do you not understand damage boosting abilities like Sanguinary Veins and Expose Weakness? How about the idea that you should pop your cooldowns as well? How about selecting the right type of dagger and gearing properly? All of these are skill based which increase backstab damage and has nothing to do with pressing a button hard enough.

    So if you're not claiming rogue damage is weak, what exactly are you complaining about? Every single class has always been gear dependent. No one is going to do crap damage if you're walking around in greens. Show me a crafted blue lv 90 rogue that only crits 7k with backstab.

    You're either in leveling greens (not even level 90 greens) or not level 90 at all. No one geared properly has damage that low.
    Apparently even bolding it wasn't enough. The question has already been answered though, but next time try not to reply to help threads with so much assbaggery.
    WoD updated Disc Priest Guide http://i.imgur.com/eOlZz9N.png

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Apparently even bolding it wasn't enough. The question has already been answered though, but next time try not to reply to help threads with so much assbaggery.
    So instead of going out and farming some gear, you're going to sit here and lash out at everyone who points out that your gear sucks and its way Blizzard intended it.

    /logic

    When multiple people point out that with even half decent gear you do more than 7K Backstab crits, you just sit there and cry about how the game is too gear oriented when a full set of Honor can be farmed in a day or two. I also like how you refuse to link your armory because it would clearly show that you're running around in what seems to be Cata greens and complaining about your damage.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnu View Post
    Do you have your SnD up? Does your target has a bleed on (rupture or garrote - hemo doesn't count for sanguinary veins)? Ambush also allows you to bypass 70% of the armor for a short period of time if I'm not mistaken.

    And as mentioned above pooling energy is really important as well for sub, sitting on a guy spamming hemo/backstab won't do too much.

    It sounds silly but these things are important and you could really see a difference.

    My 2 cents
    Typically the opener prior to 90 that I worked out was something like garrote -> ambush -> SnD. I did garrote even on melee since it would apply sanguinary vein for ambush, and also does exposed armor for the ambush (I'm not sure if exposed armor benefits the ability that applies it, I haven't done any testing and it's been over 2 years since I played). SnD was obviously for the energy recovery.

    Something I haven't worked out is where to place recuperate since it's just a pure HoT now, though. And I don't use Shadow Blades nearly enough since I've had it for all maybe 3 days.

    Also, I'm assuming that the skill priority is something like Hit > Agility > Mastery > Crit > Haste, and I don't know where to place expertise. Is that correct, or is Crit > Mastery?
    Last edited by Larynx; 2013-03-27 at 06:39 PM.
    WoD updated Disc Priest Guide http://i.imgur.com/eOlZz9N.png

  12. #32
    Playing a rogue myself, yes the damage overall is pretty weak.
    Because in PvP Burst > lots of small damage

    Rogues need to set up burst to kill their target, once you use all your cooldowns on a target with no defenses, you'll demolish them, but that's the only time.

  13. #33
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Guys keep it civil!

    Either have a mature discussion or don't and I'll lock the thread.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Typically the opener prior to 90 that I worked out was something like garrote -> ambush -> SnD. I did garrote even on melee since it would apply sanguinary vein for ambush, and also does exposed armor for the ambush (I'm not sure if exposed armor benefits the ability that applies it, I haven't done any testing and it's been over 2 years since I played). SnD was obviously for the energy recovery.

    Something I haven't worked out is where to place recuperate since it's just a pure HoT now, though. And I don't use Shadow Blades nearly enough since I've had it for all maybe 3 days.

    Also, I'm assuming that the skill priority is something like Hit > Agility > Mastery > Crit > Haste, and I don't know where to place expertise. Is that correct, or is Crit > Mastery?
    I think you're right with your first prio list (Hit > Mastery > Crit >>>>> Haste). Crit and Mastery are both valuable though, you don't want one to pull way ahead of the other.

    In general, I don't think Recup is something you kind of put into your rotation. It's more of a 'use when you need it' sort of spell now.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Typically the opener prior to 90 that I worked out was something like garrote -> ambush -> SnD. I did garrote even on melee since it would apply sanguinary vein for ambush, and also does exposed armor for the ambush (I'm not sure if exposed armor benefits the ability that applies it, I haven't done any testing and it's been over 2 years since I played). SnD was obviously for the energy recovery.

    Something I haven't worked out is where to place recuperate since it's just a pure HoT now, though. And I don't use Shadow Blades nearly enough since I've had it for all maybe 3 days.

    Also, I'm assuming that the skill priority is something like Hit > Agility > Mastery > Crit > Haste, and I don't know where to place expertise. Is that correct, or is Crit > Mastery?

    You need to use Premed while in stealth (or during shadowdance), put the 2 CPs in to Slice and Dice and then open. Remember to have Slice and Dice going while in combat for energy.

    I use recuperate if it's a prolonged fight

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Faenskap View Post
    You need to use Premed while in stealth (or during shadowdance), put the 2 CPs in to Slice and Dice and then open. Remember to have Slice and Dice going while in combat for energy.

    I use recuperate if it's a prolonged fight
    Yes know, I forgot to include premed in that.

    But alright, I'll try that. The reason I do the 5 point CnD is because it's free.
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  17. #37
    Lolno, at least their damage is not weak against my priest. Their individual hits are not that big, but they attack so fast they do a shitload of damage in a very short amount of time. I would say their damage is weaker against melee though (more armor).

  18. #38
    You are either undergeared or need help getting better on your rogue. A rogue with cds and shadowdance is a very scary thing.

  19. #39
    Our damage is not in builders anymore. It's in finishers (Eviscerate and Rupture), SD (lots of cheap Ambushes, Eviscs, and Find Weakness), and autoattacks (mastery-buffed SnD and poisons). All of our damage needs to be set up first too: SnD, Rupture, energy pooling.

    Our sustained is one of the best in the game if you can keep uptime, and our burst isn't terrible. It's also really hard to peel a rogue with 1m CoS, CnD, and ST/DT. We also have pretty sick control. We're only lacking in actual mobility (ST/DT is a bandaid for this) and actual survivability (we can be killed through our defensives pretty easily; control and running away are our survivability). I miss the old recup, but we're in a pretty good spot this season.

  20. #40
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    Outside of our offensive CDs, our damage will be a little lacking, but you have to chose your fights. You should definitely spec into subterfuge if you haven't already, it is basically a mini shadowdance every time we come out of stealth. Plus shadowdance is only a 1 minute cooldown, if you find you are having trouble keeping on target, try popping cloak of shadows at the same time to prevent peeling via magical sources (snares, fear, certain stuns). Make use of some macros for your burst. If you have the "use" trinket, macro that with your shadowdance, or if you are an engineer, do the same with synapse springs. As for the proc trinkets, pay attention to when they happen and try to take advantage of them (same with tailor cape enchant).

    For your final talent choice, all three are very nice for PvP imo. ST coupled with DT will annoy the hell out of any caster you come across, with anticipation you can ambush away during sdance and not worry about having 5 CPs, and it allows you to eviscerate twice in a row which can hurt a lot with FW up. MFD is also nice, it can be used as a preparation on steroids, or to add 5 CPs to your target for a quick eviscerate (with FW up), rupture, stun, etc.

    Also, gear is very important. Get your PvP weapon as soon as you can, it will add a ton of PvP Power which helps a ton.
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