The Gorehowl Paradox

[blackyfrost]

The weapons we loot are NOT canon. Gorehowl was in Thrall's possession going back directly to Manneroth's death.
The Prince never lore wise had Gorehowl in the first place.

Taking mechanics literally is just a gross misunderstanding of the game's design at best or pretentious self aggrandizement at worst. It's inclusion as loot was nothing more than a cool nod to people who love the lore and characters.

it's a gross fuckup of the devs is what it is. stuff like that souldn't be loot

[The Madgod]

Technically if you want to look at it from a lore perspective we (the players) don't even kill any named NPC's. That would cause an even bigger paradox than Gorehowl belonging to two+ people, so in reality there's no paradox to begin with because we never actually looted anything off of those corpses because we were never there when those enemies died. From a lore perspective.

Roleplayer logic wins once again!

[Zanito44]

The weapons we loot are NOT canon. Gorehowl was in Thrall's possession going back directly to Manneroth's death.
The Prince never lore wise had Gorehowl in the first place.

Taking mechanics literally is just a gross misunderstanding of the game's design at best or pretentious self aggrandizement at worst. It's inclusion as loot was nothing more than a cool nod to people who love the lore and characters.

Is it the same with the weapons we loot from Arthas or was that an exception.

[The Madgod]

Is it the same with the weapons we loot from Arthas or was that an exception.

No it's the same thing for all weapons we loot. Loot and even player characters killing NPC's is purely a game mechanic (albeit vital to WoW's PvE) so any loot that's connected to any lore or any lore characters is purely Blizzard giving a nod to the playerbase.

[Shaley]

Everyone saying it's just a non-canon "flavor" type item, I ask you.

1) What lore items were dropped from places that DID make sense?
Ragnaros dropped Sulfuras, Illidan dropped the Warglaives and the Skull of Gul'dan, Thorim dropped his mace Legacy of Thunder, Algalon dropped his dagger Fang of Oblivion, Every item the Lich King dropped belonged to people he encountered or killed, such as Antonidas, Sylvanas x2, Kel'Thuzad, Terenas, Illidan, Kael'Thas, and his horse Invincible.

Jindo dropped several named weapons from high ranking trolls. Zul'jin dropped Jin'Rohk's sword.

2) What other Lore items were dropped from places that "didn't make sense" ?

Malchezaar dropped Gorehowl.


Blizzard is, and has always been, very deliberate with their item drops. There is definitely something more to be told with Malchezaar having Gorehowl.

[Zanito44]

No it's the same thing for all weapons we loot. Loot and even player characters killing NPC's is purely a game mechanic (albeit vital to WoW's PvE) so any loot that's connected to any lore or any lore characters is purely Blizzard giving a nod to the playerbase.

We're the adventurers. We've taken legit credit for kills of major raid bosses before and we're finally getting some recognition after Wrath. We're canon. Maybe not millions of us but since the names of adventurers aren't given you might as well say it's any one of us.

[The Madgod]

Blizzard is, and has always been, very deliberate with their item drops. There is definitely something more to be told with Malchezaar having Gorehowl.

Except it's been stated in the Shattering that the Horde has had it in its possession since Grom died killing Mannoroth. If Malchezaar had it I think he would have been mentioned.

[Shaley]

Except it's been stated in the Shattering that the Horde has had it in its possession since Grom died killing Mannoroth. If Malchezaar had it I think he would have been mentioned.

"All realities, all dimensions are open to me!"

It's entirely possible that, at the time, Blizzard didn't think much of it. It could've been put in at the same as a fan-service. This was early BC, and relatively early in WoW's life in general.

It may not have been intentional at the time (they aren't going to put seeds in the game 7 years in advance), but they can definitely spin this if they so choose to. All it takes is "lol Malchezaar traveled time". Let's be real here, "was merely a setback" happened.

[The Madgod]

We're the adventurers. We've taken legit credit for kills of major raid bosses before and we're finally getting some recognition after Wrath. We're canon. Maybe not millions of us but since the names of adventurers aren't given you might as well say it's any one of us.

Not really... hear me out.

As a collective, sure, to an extent. The problem with the logic of the bolded is that if anyone can claim they did something, then that act loses meaning. Over 10,000 people (a GROSS underestimation) can claim that they've killed the Lich King. How many people do you think his platform could hold, in lore? Probably like 2-4% of that, and that's pushing it. So if say out of that 10,000+ only 100 can realistically have been part of that kill... How do we decide who gets that honor?

That's a true paradox. Because everyone can claim something yet only a few could have actually done the deed, we roleplayers take the stance of nobody can claim such. It's very weird to an outsider, because you basically have to say that you never did all those quests that made you out to be THE hero, which is a good amount of them, but it's really the only way you can look at this without seeing serious conflicting information.

"All realities, all dimensions are open to me!"

It's entirely possible that, at the time, Blizzard didn't think much of it. It could've been put in at the same as a fan-service. This was early BC, and relatively early in WoW's life in general.

It may not have been intentional at the time (they aren't going to put seeds in the game 7 years in advance), but they can definitely spin this if they so choose to. All it takes is "lol Malchezaar traveled time". Let's be real here, "was merely a setback" happened.

Sure, its possible in the relatively far future, but I don't think that such would be worth actually putting in... It'd be a good nod but I don't know. It would be very disorienting if it was in game. At best, it could be a little snippet in a future novel discussing the reconstruction of the Horde after the events of 5.4

[Shaley]

Really, the whole placement of Malchezaar at the top of Karazhan has been debated for as long as Karazhan has existed. Why was he there? How did he get there? He was completely out of place. Was he supposed to be a Herald? Why Karazhan?

"Karazhan's history begins with an explosion that carved out Deadwind Pass and weakened the fabric of reality in the region. Someone then built the tower, probably to take advantage of this weakened reality and heightened magic."

It's in the lore that the fabric of reality around Karazhan is weakened. I would put money on Blizzard explaining Malchezaar's time travel in the next burning crusade expansion.

Edit: I missed in my previous post, that Malchezaar actually dropped his own axe, The Decapitator.

[Deleted]

Cool theory. Unfortunately, I don't think the game designers plan that far ahead or are that deliberate.

There's a statue of a bunch of raiders fighting Elegon in Ulduar :P

FORESHADOWING!

[Zanito44]

Nope.

As a collective, sure, to an extent. The problem with the logic of the bolded is that if anyone can claim they did something, then that act loses meaning. Over 10,000 people can claim that they've killed the Lich King. How many people do you think his platform could hold, in lore? Probably like 2-4% of that, and that's pushing it. So if say out of that 10,000+ only 100 can realistically have been part of that kill... How do we decide who gets that honor?

That's a true paradox. Because everyone can claim something yet only a few could have actually done the deed, we roleplayers take the stance of nobody can claim such. It's very weird to an outsider, because you basically have to say that you never did all those quests that made you out to be THE hero, which is a good amount of them, but it's really the only way you can look at this without seeing serious conflicting information.

"We were there, when a world of limitless adventure opened up before us. We rose defiantly, against all those that threatened the peace of our kingdoms. We ventured to a new alien world, and cast the lords of shadow and flame back into the abyss. It was we who held the line as death itself rose like a tide to swallow everything we held dear. We have endured the breaking of the world, and must now face the Destroyer and end his cycle of destruction. But soon we will face a new chapter. An adventure unlike any we have known thus far. A mystery shrouded by superstition, a land of forgotten power and ancient magics, and a people that may well change the fate of us all. For all the challenges we have faced and all the places we have been, Azeroth's limits have yet to be revealed." - Mists of Pandaria Trailer spoken by our point of view. We've been everywhere. We're always there and always will be. Done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyeZ8khSEC0

[The Madgod]

I stand by what I've said. I'm not sure if Blizzard's going to go back to him, especially concerning Gorehowl.

"We were there, when a world of limitless adventure opened up before us. We rose defiantly, against all those that threatened the peace of our kingdoms. We ventured to a new alien world, and cast the lords of shadow and flame back into the abyss. It was we who held the line as death itself rose like a tide to swallow everything we held dear. We have endured the breaking of the world, and must now face the Destroyer and end his cycle of destruction. But soon we will face a new chapter. An adventure unlike any we have known thus far. A mystery shrouded by superstition, a land of forgotten power and ancient magics, and a people that may well change the fate of us all. For all the challenges we have faced and all the places we have been, Azeroth's limits have yet to be revealed." - Mists of Pandaria Trailer spoken by our point of view. We've been everywhere. We're always there and always will be. Done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyeZ8khSEC0

How does this prove that there shouldn't be a dissonance between your playable character in the game and his or her proper lore representation? Honest question/

"We" is a very general term and really even if he is talking about our characters, he is talking about them as they are in lore, citizens and adventurers of the Alliance and Horde, not as they are in Mount Hyjal (where EVERY character who passes through is the single chosen one of Aessina) or in raids.

I've never seen an argument that debunks the idea that if millions of people have killed a boss in-game that saying each person has an equal claim to that kill in-lore is a paradox.

[Kaneiac]

It's no wonder Blizzard can't satisfy anyone with fanatical connections and stuff like this.

[Lumineus]

The weapons we loot are NOT canon. Gorehowl was in Thrall's possession going back directly to Manneroth's death.
The Prince never lore wise had Gorehowl in the first place.

Taking mechanics literally is just a gross misunderstanding of the game's design at best or pretentious self aggrandizement at worst. It's inclusion as loot was nothing more than a cool nod to people who love the lore and characters.

So... if that's true, why did they have to make up Shadowmourne so players couldn't loot Frostmourne or Ashbringer? Why did we have to smelt down Arthas' Paladin hammer (which should have been legendary in its own right) in order to make it? Since Wrath there has been a marked shift by the developers away from allowing players to have lore weapons, solely for the reason "everyone running around with X is silly." Orly, was it not silly enough when it was Illidan's glaives then?

[Deleted]

Awesome theory! I hope this is the actual plot because this is mind blowing.

[Kaneiac]

So... if that's true, why did they have to make up Shadowmourne so players couldn't loot Frostmourne or Ashbringer? Why did we have to smelt down Arthas' Paladin hammer (which should have been legendary in its own right) in order to make it? Since Wrath there has been a marked shift by the developers away from allowing players to have lore weapons, solely for the reason "everyone running around with X is silly." Orly, was it not silly enough when it was Illidan's glaives then?

Because Frostmourne actually ate souls, and Ashbringer had the capacity to bring any undead mob to ash instantly.

Gorehowl was just an axe. A legendary, fantastic axe, but just an axe.

Not to mention the fact that Frostmourne was destroyed.

Glaives are the only discrepancy here, given that they have more powers than just "lol slay demons", as Illidan had showed us. I dunno.

There has been a marked shift in their philosophy though, that much is VERY clear.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think Blizzard wasn't doing well with experience in stories up until late BC and so forth. Now they're getting more ways to progress the lore. So really no Paradox. Just a little "WOOPS THAT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THERE!!"

[fangless]

Not totally related, but having a heroic mode of Karazhan (if Karazhan were a normal mode progression raid in today's raiding era) turn out to be the upside down version would be insanely awesome.

It would be stealing from Castlevania, but w/e :P You beat all the bosses, and then enter in another door, and face new stuff in the new areas of the building you couldn't reach.

[wariofan1]

Well, while it's a valid and pretty good theory, it's just too complicated for Blizzard to ever pull off, they shouldn't base an expansion out from something so hard to explain in short, I sure can't see this being written on the back of an expansion box at least.