Patch 5.3: Vale of Eternal Blossoms is RUINED

[SodiumChloride]

Doing that would nearly genocide the High Elves. How about we just umm do a *Internal affairs* thing to both groups. Aethas being silent isn't helpful at this point either but not the point of the thread.

I was just applying his "logic" to make a point. Reductio ad absurdum.

[TheDDGuides]

Doing that would nearly genocide the High Elves. How about we just umm do a *Internal affairs* thing to both groups. Aethas being silent isn't helpful at this point either but not the point of the thread.

Why don't we just genocide every race that doesn't agree with Leader of X or Council of Y.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I was just applying his "logic" to make a point. Reductio ad absurdum.

Then stop.

[SodiumChloride]

Then stop.

Why?

I'm discussing the topic. Indirect proof is a perfectly acceptable form of argument.

[Talen]

WTF are you talking about? It won't be "dragging" anyone into a war if King Chin doesn't kick up a fess about it. The Horde isn't going to attack Dalaran. They can stay out of it if the Alliance exhibit some common sense and doesn't move against them.

What are you talking about? The Horde committed an act of war against Dalaran when it used it as a base for its troops. That's how Dalaran got dragged into the war. The Alliances reaction is essentially meaningless. It's how Dalaran is going to view the violation of its territorial sovreignity.

This time, it chose not to ignore it. They'd already given the Sunreavers the benefit of the doubt, they'd already trusted Aethas, they'd already assumed the traitors had been identified and dealt with.

The Sunreavers were not formed to "betray" Dalaran. They had a few bad eggs.

This is true. But Dalaran had NO good options here. They had already tried the "trust, forgive but don't forget" route and it hadn't worked. Aethas' assurances after the last time had proven worthless. The Horde had shown it didn't value Dalarans neutrality by continuing to engage the Sunreavers.

Precisely! You investigate who was involved and purged those. NOT THE ENTIRE SUNREAVERS ORGANISATION!! p

Already tried. The Divine Bell incident showed that such an action had not worked and that Aethas' assurances were worthless.

Should they have an approach that had already failed in the hope that THIS time it would work? That this time they catch all the Sunreavers agents? That this time their failure wouldn't mean Garrosh locating and using yet another WMD?

Right ... refuse to go ... which is why they were trying to get their dragonhawks back ...

Aethas refused to leave. It was after that that Plan B went into effect. If they wouldn't go, if they couldn't be trusted free then they needed to be controlled.

Yes, innocents suffered. And the Silver Covenenants actions were at times questionable. But Dalaran and the Kirin Tor needed to deal with the Sunreavers Horde agents once and for all. If the Sunreavesr wouldn't leave, if they weren't trusted enough to have them wander around, if they are too powerful to control ior restrict and if the city state was headed towards war with the horde as a result of their actions, what viable options were there?

EJL

[SodiumChloride]

What are you talking about? The Horde committed an act of war against Dalaran when it used it as a base for its troops. That's how Dalaran got dragged into the war. The Alliances reaction is essentially meaningless. It's how Dalaran is going to view the violation of its territorial sovreignity.

I really have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. LOL

What base for it's troops? A few Sunreavers secretly sided with Garrosh and leaded a hand on the side.

This time, it chose not to ignore it. They'd already given the Sunreavers the benefit of the doubt, they'd already trusted Aethas, they'd already assumed the traitors had been identified and dealt with.

This is true. But Dalaran had NO good options here. They had already tried the "trust, forgive but don't forget" route and it hadn't worked. Aethas' assurances after the last time had proven worthless. The Horde had shown it didn't value Dalarans neutrality by continuing to engage the Sunreavers.

That still doesn't justify a purge. Aethas isn't an unreasonable person. If the council wants them gone, they probably would have left on their own accord to avoid bloodshed. Jaina just walked up to him, froze his guards and imprison him ... then they impound the Sunreaver's dragonhawks ... WTF

Already tried. The Divine Bell incident showed that such an action had not worked and that Aethas' assurances were worthless.

Should they have an approach that had already failed in the hope that THIS time it would work? That this time they catch all the Sunreavers agents? That this time their failure wouldn't mean Garrosh locating and using yet another WMD?

Again, it doesn't justify a purge. There are "traitors" within the Sunreavers. Aethas isn't an all-knowing god, it would take time to weed them out.

Jaina is being completely unreasonable.

BTW, Kel'thuzad was a Kirin Tor mage who joined the Lich King. A human mage. I say we purge Dalaran of all Stormwind aligned humans. They didn't stop him from going bad, obviously they are all guilty too. /rolleyes

Also what will purging the Sunreavers do? Yes, send them to Silvermoon where they will team up with, and be under the command of, Silvermoon's already very formidable Magisters who are in turn under Lor'themar. Brilliant decision making there. LOL

If the Sunreavers are as evil as you claim, it won't stop them from doing further damage, in fact you are empowering them.

Aethas refused to leave. It was after that that Plan B went into effect. If they wouldn't go, if they couldn't be trusted free then they needed to be controlled.

What?! You imprisoned him!!!! The guy wasn't even resisting and you had him in a magic deathgrip chokehold.

Yes, innocents suffered. And the Silver Covenenants actions were at times questionable. But Dalaran and the Kirin Tor needed to deal with the Sunreavers Horde agents once and for all. If the Sunreavesr wouldn't leave, if they weren't trusted enough to have them wander around, if they are too powerful to control ior restrict and if the city state was headed towards war with the horde as a result of their actions, what viable options were there?

You keep saying they wouldn't leave, but yet you impound their dragonhawks ...

Secondly, Dalaran is their home too. It's as much the Sunreaver's as it is the Silver Covent's.

I don't understand why some Alliance players can't seem to accept that Jaina messed up bad here. She decide to be a dictator, purging people from their homes due to ... I don't know really. It doesn't really add up no matter how you look at it. I swear this is just Blizzard's terribad writing at work again.

[Redmage]

I swear this is just Blizzard's terribad writing at work again.

Well it took you a while but you finally got to the heart of it.

[SodiumChloride]

Well it took you a while but you finally got to the heart of it.

Oh no ... I realised it long ago ... ever since BC with Illidan "going mad" and Mezten screwing up the origin of the Draenei and Sargeras.

What I don't understand is how certain players can stand behind the actions (illogical or otherwise) of Jaina Proudmoore.

[Darmalus]

Oh no ... I realised it long ago ... ever since BC with Illidan "going mad" and Mezten screwing up the origin of the Draenei and Sargeras.

What I don't understand is how certain players can stand behind the actions (illogical or otherwise) of Jaina Proudmoore.

She's been getting away with illogical actions and utter hypocrisy for a long time. She uses her city as a military base to attack the barrens, then acts all shocked when it gets bombed. But she gets a free pass and will probably continue to claim neutrality forever.

[TheDDGuides]

Oh no ... I realised it long ago ... ever since BC with Illidan "going mad" and Mezten screwing up the origin of the Draenei and Sargeras.

What I don't understand is how certain players can stand behind the actions (illogical or otherwise) of Jaina Proudmoore.

You... do realise that Illidan has always been mad, right?

[Banshee Prince]

Meh. I always thought it was an ugly zone anyway.

And besides...i doubt the shado pan could survive a war with the horde considering five hero's almost killed taran zhu once already and massacred his entire monestery.

[SodiumChloride]

You... do realise that Illidan has always been mad, right?

I never played WC3, but from what I read, he was just reckless and arrogant. He was a character that straddle the thin line between villain and hero. Saying he has gone mad just to make him a raid boss ... Not to mention they then did it again in Wrath with Malyos. -_-

[wariofan1]

I never played WC3, but from what I read, he was just reckless and arrogant. He was a character that straddle the thin line between villain and hero. Saying he has gone mad just to make him a raid boss ... Not to mention they then did it again in Wrath with Malyos. -_-

Well, Illidan was always pretty mad, powerhungry and not straight thinking, even in Warcraft III. It's not something they just pulled out of their ass.

Malygos didn't go mad btw, in-game NPCs claimed that as an excuse to get rid of him, but he was really just doing his job that the titans assigned him to do. He predicted that the mortal races' reckless use of magic would summon forth the Burning Legion again, and voila, next expansion looks to be an invasion by the Burning Legion.

[Talen]

What base for it's troops? A few Sunreavers secretly sided with Garrosh and leaded a hand on the side.

Yes. Exactly. They violated the neutrality and so forced Dalaran into the war.

That still doesn't justify a purge. Aethas isn't an unreasonable person. If the council wants them gone, they probably would have left on their own accord to avoid bloodshed. Jaina just walked up to him, froze his guards and imprison him ... then they impound the Sunreaver's dragonhawks ... WTF

She banished him and he refused to go. She'd already tried it his way and it hadn't worked. They pulled the same stunt again.

Again, it doesn't justify a purge. There are "traitors" within the Sunreavers. Aethas isn't an all-knowing god, it would take time to weed them out.

Time he'd already had. To perform a task he'd supposedly already COMPLETED.

Also what will purging the Sunreavers do? Yes, send them to Silvermoon where they will team up with, and be under the command of, Silvermoon's already very formidable Magisters who are in turn under Lor'themar. Brilliant decision making there. LOL

Irrelevant. She was sending them back anyway. The purge was initiated because Sunreavers dragged the city into a war it wanted no part of, and Aethas refused to go.

What?! You imprisoned him!!!! The guy wasn't even resisting and you had him in a magic deathgrip chokehold.

You seem to keep overlooking that a: He'd already had his chance to cleanse the Sunreavers and failed and B: He'd been opffered the chance to take his people and leave peacefully - and rejected it.

You keep saying they wouldn't leave, but yet you impound their dragonhawks ...

Seriously? Do you understand the notion of cause and effect?

Jaina wanted them to leave.
Jaina offered them the chance to elave.
Aethas REFUSED.

And because he refused, Jaina initiated the purge and eveything that came with it. If the Sunreavers wouldn't go, Jaina would put them where they could do no harm. And that includes subduing the Dragonhawks that would have taken them away IF they had accepted that option.

If Aethas had accepted, the dragonhawks would not have been subdued.

Secondly, Dalaran is their home too. It's as much the Sunreaver's as it is the Silver Covent's.

And they were banished by the ruling Council. Exiled from the city.

I don't understand why some Alliance players can't seem to accept that Jaina messed up bad here. She decide to be a dictator, purging people from their homes due to ... I don't know really. It doesn't really add up no matter how you look at it. I swear this is just Blizzard's terribad writing at work again.

Its because she was left with few viable options here. The Sunreavers actions could not be ignored a second time which meant the city was going to war. They'd been given their second chance, Aethas had been given his chance to remove the traitors. He failed, and disaster followed for a second time. He'd been given his chance to take his people and go and he refused. His people were too powerful to trust to walk around and that leaves imprisonment. As it is, most of the Sunreavers went quietly.

EJL

[Combatbutler]

Yes. Exactly. They violated the neutrality and so forced Dalaran into the war.
EJL

This point is entirely irrelevant, since both sides broke neutrality, Jaina guarded Darnassus and it seems she or other Kirin Tor hid stormwind soldiers away at the Antonidas memorial, the purge was necessary and right, the blood elves shouldn't have returned to Dalaran to begin with it was foolish to be honest, from an elven point of view they should hold one hell of a grudge, since Dalran did not help Quel'thalas during the third war, even though they were allies and later let Garithos do as he pleased.

Kirin Var was sacked by blood elves and some of those very elves rejoined Silvermoon, there shouldn't have been any bond left between these two factions that warrants such a close cooperation. I honestly expected the blood elves would despise the Kirin Tor and vice versa.

[Talen]

This point is entirely irrelevant, since both sides broke neutrality, Jaina guarded Darnassus

Totally irrelevant. First...Dalarans neutrality belonged to the Six and Jaina and was theirs to do with whatever they wanted. The Sunreavers had no such right. Second, not even the horde have claimed she broke neutrality by doing so. Heck, even the Sunreavers don't make that claim. Third, you speculate based on incomplete knowledge...you don't know what the plans for the Bell were. Fourth...neutrality is not the same as non-involvement.

since Dalran did not help Quel'thalas during the third war, even though they were allies and later let Garithos do as he pleased.

Again, pure speculation. You assume they were in a position to do something. I could just as easily say that Garithos' heavy handed manner and the way he treated the BElfs, the way he ignored their protests and used his army to enforce his will, could easily explain why Dalaran left the Alliance in the first place.

EJL

[TheDDGuides]

Well, Illidan was always pretty mad, powerhungry and not straight thinking, even in Warcraft III. It's not something they just pulled out of their ass.

Malygos didn't go mad btw, in-game NPCs claimed that as an excuse to get rid of him, but he was really just doing his job that the titans assigned him to do. He predicted that the mortal races' reckless use of magic would summon forth the Burning Legion again, and voila, next expansion looks to be an invasion by the Burning Legion.

It's kinda like saying Arthas wasn't mad because he was "obsessed with his mission" when in reality, he was mad and a bit of a jerk.

[Faroth]

Yet another expansion I'm regretting not having Horde alts leveled up since Alliance side is... /yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

[Flaks]

Yet another expansion I'm regretting not having Horde alts leveled up since Alliance side is... /yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

Lol yea. I mean, I play Horde but this is flat out ridiculous.

They promised Alliance more this expansion. Instead we get a whole patch focused 99% on the Horde. I mean, if you're going to do something, at least don't flat out lie about it. Cataclysm wasn't even this one-sided.

[TheDDGuides]

Yet another expansion I'm regretting not having Horde alts leveled up since Alliance side is... /yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

As a player who recently faction swapped to Alliance, this hurts me.