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  1. #1

    Runic Empowerment vs Runic Corruption

    Of late I have been having a hard time deciding on which of these 2 talents I should stick to for PVE and PVE for both Frost and Unholy.

    I am trying to stay away from Blood Tap cause I usually have a hard time micro managing my runes, especially when I have so much else going on.

    If I remember correctly the last time I played my Death Knight, during WTLK and early Cata, Runic Empowerment basically had a 45% chance of generating a randomly depleted rune to a "DEATH RUNE" when you used Frost Strike. However, they have changed it a bit and it only generates a randomly depleted rune. I could be wrong on this but this is how I remember the talent. If this is the case then I don't think its as powerful now as it was then.

    However, Runic Corruption increases your rune generation by 100% for 2.5+ secs which works wonderfully in a PVE setting. I like the passive nature of it. However, I just feel the up time is really low. 2.5+ seconds? That is considerably low if you are in Frost Presence playing as Frost. Unholy Presence as Unholy has it a bit easier since they already get a passive buff to rune generation.

    Now I have not played much with my Death Knight, just been getting into the class recently and I plan on making it my main. So would like to know the pros and cons and which talent stands out?

  2. #2
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Blood Tap > Rune Tetris > Runic Corruption > Runic Empowerment

    If you are not good at managing blood tap, gaming RE is the next best thing.
    If you are not good at gaming RE, Runic Corruption is better.
    But if you just mindlessly mash your buttons, Runic Corruption wins over Runic Empowerment.

    RE did not change since WotLK, RC was changed to counter haste scaling, BT got reworked (almost) completely

    1 BT use = 1 full death rune
    1 RE proc = 1 full "random" rune
    1 RC proc = 100% increase for 3/10s of rune regeneration (both shortened by haste) in other words "30% of all 3 runes regenerated"

    Properly playing RE is in my opinion harder than managing BT.

    Purely DpS wise, good RE is almost on the level of good BT and RC lacks behind.

  3. #3
    For frost, there's no need to micromanage BT. Just macro it to frost strike. Gamed RE is also a valid choice, but BT sims slightly higher.

    For unholy, gaming RE really isn't a valid choice since you can't not festering strike as your diseases will run out early. Particularly for festerblight. RC offers the same rune regen as BT but doesn't give a death rune. So unholy should use BT. Or ungamed RE, but BT sims higher.

    Blood can pick and choose. RC offers more consistent rune intervals, RE offers the most death strikes over time, and BT is the most control.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2013-04-02 at 12:59 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    For frost, there's no need to micromanage BT. Just macro it to frost strike. Gamed RE is also a valid choice, but BT sims slightly higher.

    For unholy, gaming RE really isn't a valid choice since you can't not festering strike as your diseases will run out early. Particularly for festerblight. RC offers the same rune regen as BT but doesn't give a death rune. So unholy should use BT. Or ungamed RE, but BT sims higher.

    Blood can pick and choose. RC offers more consistent rune intervals, RE offers the most death strikes over time, and BT is the most control.
    Would you be kinda enough to make a macro for me with BT and Frost Strike?

    I couldn't find it anywhere. Thanks.

  5. #5
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    #showtooltip Frost Strike
    /cast !Blood Tap
    /cast Frost Strike

    ^ should do the job

    best used when spamming the FS button, if it doesn't work as nice as it should try:

    #showtooltip Frost Strike
    /cast !Blood Tap
    /stopcasting
    /cast Frost Strike

    But be careful if you spam the button while you are casting something it will likely cancel the cast (even with the first one)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    #showtooltip Frost Strike
    /cast !Blood Tap
    /cast Frost Strike

    ^ should do the job
    Thanks a lot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 01:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    #showtooltip Frost Strike
    /cast !Blood Tap
    /cast Frost Strike

    ^ should do the job

    best used when spamming the FS button, if it doesn't work as nice as it should try:

    #showtooltip Frost Strike
    /cast !Blood Tap
    /stopcasting
    /cast Frost Strike

    But be careful if you spam the button while you are casting something it will likely cancel the cast (even with the first one)
    The first macro worked really well. Is there a similar Macro for Unholy? I am guessing it would be macro'd with Death Coil? Should I just replace Frost Strike in the Macro with Death Coil?

  7. #7
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Blood Tap > Rune Tetris > Runic Corruption > Runic Empowerment

    If you are not good at managing blood tap, gaming RE is the next best thing.
    If you are not good at gaming RE, Runic Corruption is better.
    But if you just mindlessly mash your buttons, Runic Corruption wins over Runic Empowerment.

    RE did not change since WotLK, RC was changed to counter haste scaling, BT got reworked (almost) completely

    1 BT use = 1 full death rune
    1 RE proc = 1 full "random" rune
    1 RC proc = 100% increase for 3/10s of rune regeneration (both shortened by haste) in other words "30% of all 3 runes regenerated"

    Properly playing RE is in my opinion harder than managing BT.

    Purely DpS wise, good RE is almost on the level of good BT and RC lacks behind.
    Confused by this ^^

    I'm assuming the OP is talking 2H frost (and a PvE setting) seeing as he mentioned using unholy as well and didn't specify using DW.

    IF YOU MEAN 2H FROST, PVE:

    There is no "gaming RE" for 2H frost unless you're constantly using an AOE rotation (you don't). All your runes are used on Obliterate. Blood tap only ends up simming higher for 2H at 520ish+ gear ilvls IIRC as it can minimise the "feast or famine" nature of your resources. Blood tap isn't RNG and can bank extra charges for those annoying/awesome times where you RP cap due to AMS absorbing or whatever. Boss about to port away for a 10second phase where he's not attackable? NO PROBLEM - your blood charges will be available for instant use when he ports back. As 2H you can macro BT to frost strike without losing much (despite what some people might say) and, above all it's just nice to not have to worry about the RNG nature of RE.

    RE, on the other hand returns more runes over the course of an encounter (on average) than Blood Tap and, for any encounter where you're tunneling a boss/adds with minimal downtime then it will likely end up with a slight DPS increase overall. Additionally as you said you haven't played your DK much then I'm assuming your ilvl isn't massively high and so you won't benefit hugely from the banking of resources that BT allows.

    RC has the lowest DPS potential of the 3 talents... But not by a massive amount and some people like the super-fast rune regen style o.O

    In a nutshell (on average over the course of a fight):

    BT - Each frost strike equals 40% of a death rune
    RE - Each frost strike equals 45% of a random rune
    RC - Each frost strike equals 13.5% of all 3 rune types. (or 40.5% of a whole rune, split into 3)

    DW FROST PVE:

    Unholy runes are poor, Death runes are awesome (HB/SR) hence BT returning unholy runes as death runes (whether you're actively attempting to do it or not) PLUS the fact you're so close to GCD cap as DW means BT ends up slightly ahead. Macroing BT to howling blast works slightly better than frost strike for DW IMO but that's just me. "Gaming" RE is competitive and simply means you avoid using 1 unholy rune so that the other is always recharging and RE can only return DD/FF runes.

    UNHOLY PVE

    Death runes are great, blood tap all the way <3
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-04-02 at 03:54 PM.
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  8. #8
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Confused by this ^^
    Meh, I shouldn't post during meetings, gets me confuzzling things, I was mixing all 3 DpS variants and blood in there which doesn't really help making a point :P

    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Unholy runes are poor, Death runes are awesome (HB/SR) hence BT returning unholy runes as death runes (whether you're actively attempting to do it or not) PLUS the fact you're so close to GCD cap as DW means BT ends up slightly ahead. Macroing BT to howling blast works slightly better than frost strike for DW IMO but that's just me. "Gaming" RE is competitive and simply means you avoid using 1 unholy rune so that the other is always recharging and RE can only return DD/FF runes.
    Macroing it to HB may mean that you waste the BT for SR (unless you macro it there too) and that you accidentally cap RP.
    But the difference is less than 0.1% as you can always bork it up a bit when you macro it to an ability.
    Human error may even be a greater factor than RNG problems with macroing it though...

    In the end it doesn't really matter if you can still keep true to your priorities.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Macroing it to HB may mean that you waste the BT for SR (unless you macro it there too) and that you accidentally cap RP.
    But the difference is less than 0.1% as you can always bork it up a bit when you macro it to an ability.
    Human error may even be a greater factor than RNG problems with macroing it though...

    In the end it doesn't really matter if you can still keep true to your priorities.
    Truth! Macroing it to HB (for me) feels like a nice compromise between having your runes returned instantly, potentially sitting on some/wasting rune regen time and banking a few charges when you know there might be a little downtime.

    Either way macroing is never going to be fully optimal... I'm just lazy
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-04-02 at 05:24 PM.
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  10. #10
    I don't see why you would macro BT to HB. It's not a big deal, but you generate BT stacks using frost strike, so it should be macroed to frost strike, that way you get your death runes right away.

  11. #11
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I don't see why you would macro BT to HB. It's not a big deal, but you generate BT stacks using frost strike, so it should be macroed to frost strike, that way you get your death runes right away.
    I found that it just gave me a little more control over resources. Getting instant runes during times of AMS absorbs or heroism made it feel a little too hectic. Having it on HB meant I could bring runes back on unholy runes first (even if it's not a DPS increase... Just habit) along with banking a rune or two during periods where you're flooded with resources.

    i.e. you have runes recharging but a lot of RP, leaving those runes recharging and using FS a couple of times might bring me up to 5 or 7 blood charges which could then be unloaded when I'm not likely to cap RP. I guess it's just personal preference.
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-04-02 at 06:17 PM.
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  12. #12
    I had an idea to attempt to make RC more appealing (with PvP in mind but may work in PvE) and I may as well bounce it off the DK community.

    Current RC: When you land a damaging Death Coil, Frost Strike, or Rune Strike, you have a 45% chance to activate Runic Corruption, increasing your rune regeneration rate by 100% for 3 sec.

    Suggested RC: When you land a damaging Death Coil, Frost Strike, or Rune Strike, you have a 100% chance to activate Runic Corruption, increasing your rune regeneration rate by 50% for 3 sec, stacking up to 5 times.

    Reasoning behind this is that currently for Frost PvP, in order to keep rune turnover high (With RE+BT) and keep using Rune abilites, you need a relativity decent up-time on the target in order to land several (4+) Frost Strikes, or use Death Coil from distance if you're being kited. This can make Frost PVP frustrating.

    With this change to RC, even landing 1-2 Frost Strikes will provide a noticeable increase in Rune regeneration (100%); and if you manage 4+, you're looking at 200-250% rate of regen for 3secs, meaning if you get kited or CCed, you've got runes ready to retaliate when you're mobile again.

    Numbers may need tweaking, but in general, I think this may prove to make RC comparable to RE.

    Thoughts?

  13. #13
    Hi there,

    I wanted to add my personal perspective as playing Blood.

    I have been using RE since Mists was released. Recently I changed to RC and things seem to feel "smoother" than when I was using RE. I don't really seem to notice a decrease in the amount of Death Strikes I am able to do, but the main thing I notice is that the simple "flow" of abilities is a lot more fluid. I am really enjoying RC and will be using it for now.

    I have tried using Blood Tap and found that I really didn't care for it. Yes, it gives you the best control over handling your runes, but I simply didn't like the feel for it.

    I think it really boils down to which one complements your play style the best.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus Primate View Post
    Suggested RC: When you land a damaging Death Coil, Frost Strike, or Rune Strike, you have a 100% chance to activate Runic Corruption, increasing your rune regeneration rate by 50% for 3 sec, stacking up to 5 times.
    If you assume that the duration stacks/extends infinitely, like Runic Corruption does today, 100% chance of 50% rune haste would work fine. It would move runic corruption up to the same raw performance as ungamed runic empowerment, which would make it a much more valid choice for the DPS specs.

    On the other hand, if the effect itself stacks, you need to define how that happens, and how it impacts duration. I guess you could structure it to roll like ignite, that could be interesting. But it would make what is already a very difficult to understand, unintuitive, mathy tier even more so.

    By far the easiest way to make it competitive is to simply bump RC up to a 50% proc chance. I suspect that the vast majority of tanks would take it at that point, though.

  15. #15
    The Patient Mizuisha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    #showtooltip Frost Strike
    /cast !Blood Tap
    /cast Frost Strike

    ^ should do the job

    best used when spamming the FS button, if it doesn't work as nice as it should try:

    #showtooltip Frost Strike
    /cast !Blood Tap
    /stopcasting
    /cast Frost Strike

    But be careful if you spam the button while you are casting something it will likely cancel the cast (even with the first one)
    <3 macro'd BT, so much more reliable than RE, easily predictable yet you have to pay 0 attention to it.

    Used to play with BT unmacro'd, but it took a significant amount of my focus away from encounters (read; padding), tried RE for a bit to stop that, RNG annoyed me so switched to the BT macro and it's just divine.

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk Sunnydee's Avatar
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    what is the difference on those two macros? i mean stop casting shouldnt do any diff as melee?

    also should 2h use this macro aswell or is it mainly for DW?

  17. #17
    It shouldn't be necessary.

    Putting Blood Tap before Frost Strike actually shouldn't work if you don't have enough stacks of the buff to use it. The macro should stop there most of the time without ever Frost Striking. WoW macros are weird, though. Sometimes that stuff works, even though it shouldn't.

    You're better off putting Blood Tap after Frost Strike anyway, since Frost Strike generates stacks of the buff in the first place.

    Very simple:

    #showtooltip
    /use Frost Strike
    /use Blood Tap

  18. #18
    Field Marshal Purson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Putting Blood Tap before Frost Strike actually shouldn't work if you don't have enough stacks of the buff to use it. The macro should stop there most of the time without ever Frost Striking. WoW macros are weird, though. Sometimes that stuff works, even though it shouldn't.

    You're better off putting Blood Tap after Frost Strike anyway, since Frost Strike generates stacks of the buff in the first place.

    Very simple:

    #showtooltip
    /use Frost Strike
    /use Blood Tap
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but by doing it Blood Tap like this before hand:

    /cast !Blood Tap

    Actually means if it can't be used it carries on correct? The '!' says 'even if I can't, just carry on'... right?

  19. #19
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telescope View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but by doing it Blood Tap like this before hand:

    /cast !Blood Tap

    Actually means if it can't be used it carries on correct? The '!' says 'even if I can't, just carry on'... right?
    No the ! means something very different, it's originally used for toggleable skills (think about old rune strike/heroic strike or DnD). If you would go /cast !Death and Decay it would not make the targeting reticule disappear every 2nd tap. This ability now got baked into the macro engine.
    But just like /stopcasting it still has some uses even if they may not be intended. Like Schizoide said, WoWs macro engine is a bit wonky at times. For me, it has always been a problem to use an ability that is off the GCD after an ability on the GCD. I dunno why as it shouldn't be an issue, but it strangely is. With the /stopcasting on instant spells it was no longer a problem, I could chain several skills that were off the GCD and still macro them with a skill that was on the GCD.

  20. #20
    i was always under the impression that: BT proper usage > RE > keybinding BT to something else

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