1. #1

    [RET] 4piece T14 VS 2 piece T15

    I finally got my second tier 15 token from raid finder, and checked on mr robot whether it is better than the current RF T14 4 piece bonus or not.
    The result surprised me, mr robot said that the 4 piece T14 bonus is much better (5K score which is like 3-4%) even with the 20ish ilvl upgrade.

    T14 4 piece: +10% on seals and judgements
    T15 2 piece: +6% holy damage for 6 sec after exorcism

    I did my absolutely amateur math here. Nothing precise just some thinking about it.

    Important question about T14 4 piece - does that bonus improve censure too?
    If it doesn't improve censure then judgment+truth is cca. 15% so the bonus gives 1,5% DPS increase
    If it does improve censure too then it's cca. 30% so the bonus gives 3% DPS increase

    T15 2 piece, with reforging to haste, some procs, etc, I think it'll be at least an 50% uptime. But checked some worldoflogs and it looks that is is more like 65-70%. But let me calculate with 50%. Cca. 75% of our damage is holy, so this means a 6×0.75×0.5=2.25% overall increase. So right in the middle of the 2 cases of T14 4 piece bonus.

    So isn't here some miscalculation within mr robot? Even if the censure counts, the difference is not so high. And as I said, checked some logs and it looks like the T15 2 piece uptime will be more than 50%.

    So what do you think about it? Will you change the T14 4 piece for T15 2 piece? Or do you think that mr robot is right in this case and the T14 bonus is much better and I shouldn't lose it even if I get 522 ilvl items?

  2. #2
    sounds like askmrrobot is mistaken on this one. blizz even stated that they made the t14 4p so bad so that we'd transition to t15 quicker. especially from t14 LFR, I'd drop it for t15 2p in a second.

  3. #3
    Aye t15 2pc seems really nice, and has a great up-time. I just picked up my 2nd normal mode tier piece tonight and I'm dropping my previous 496 4set for it. The stat increase from higher ilvl is icing on the cake.

  4. #4
    At the moment I have Tier15 hands + legs but im not going to use them simple because I lose 1000 haste overall because of the reforging and since thats is our best stat, im going to wait till 4p myself.
    Last edited by dragons; 2013-03-28 at 12:28 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dragons View Post
    At the moment I have Tier15 hands + legs but im not going to use them simple because I lose 1000 haste overall because of the reforging and since thats is our best stat, im going to wait till 4p myself.
    people are CONSTANTLY overestimating the value of secondary stats. if you have upgraded heroic t14 then sure, keep your old 4p, but if its a normal to normal upgrade (ie 26 ilvls) the overall stat allocation on that gear is far, FAR better even if the 496 has perfect itemization and the 522 has the worst possible. the question at that point becomes (and this was the question of the OP) how valuable t14 4p is as compared to t15 2p, to which the answer is "not very".

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    people are CONSTANTLY overestimating the value of secondary stats. if you have upgraded heroic t14 then sure, keep your old 4p, but if its a normal to normal upgrade (ie 26 ilvls) the overall stat allocation on that gear is far, FAR better even if the 496 has perfect itemization and the 522 has the worst possible. the question at that point becomes (and this was the question of the OP) how valuable t14 4p is as compared to t15 2p, to which the answer is "not very".
    So If I understand you correctly you wanna replace gear for the sake of the ilvl you gain alltho the stats are really not in your favor, that sounds really "smart".
    and IF ppl overestimating values like you say, Why do most Ranked Rets keep the 4p Tier14 over 2p Tier15 ?? probably not to gain ilvl.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dragons View Post
    So If I understand you correctly you wanna replace gear for the sake of the ilvl you gain alltho the stats are really not in your favor, that sounds really "smart".
    and IF ppl overestimating values like you say, Why do most Ranked Rets keep the 4p Tier14 over 2p Tier15 ?? probably not to gain ilvl.
    I've personally been going crazy with this, cause recently I got my hands on a few pieces of Thunderforged gear, and two pieces of 522 gear. I've swapped gear around and ran SimulationCraft, and my dps doens't change, at least for single target fights. Probably a dps increase for AOE fights.

    Haste is not the go to stat for everything. Only for gems cause MOP doubles the value of secondary stats for them. If you lose 1000 haste, but gain 600 strength, then you gain a dps increase. 3.2 dps per strength, compared to 1.7 dps per haste.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dragons View Post
    So If I understand you correctly you wanna replace gear for the sake of the ilvl you gain alltho the stats are really not in your favor, that sounds really "smart".
    and IF ppl overestimating values like you say, Why do most Ranked Rets keep the 4p Tier14 over 2p Tier15 ?? probably not to gain ilvl.
    Not exclusively, but generally yes. Well-itemized 517s will beat poorly itemized 522s easily, but I'm fairly confident the worst itemized 522 will beat the best itemized 496, for example. I could be wrong, certainly, but I doubt it. It sounds like you have a hard time believing it, and I'd encourage you to do the math. I have a feeling you'd be surprised.

    Whether or not to keep t14 is a slightly different topic, and its probably because they have well itemized 517s and so my first point applies. My ret gear isnt the greatest, but I'm ranked on a few fights and just got my 2p and some upgrades this week, so I'll be putting the 2p to the test personally. I replaced t14 normal tier pieces though so its not much of a contest.
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2013-04-01 at 10:57 AM.

  9. #9
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    I've got the same problem as OP - "Do I swap from 4p T14 to 2p T15?"
    In my case though it's a matter of weighting up T14 normal to T15 LFR (legs/hands), which is only a few ilvl's upgrade, though I do gain 2 more sockets.

  10. #10
    My question is totally unrelated to switching from 4 piece T14 to 2 piece T14/15, but I thought I would piggy back this post as there is some relation.

    I recently have gotten a few upgrades through regular ToT, so ilevel 522. Would it be worth dumping T14 4pc to pick up the overal ilevel and stat boost from the regular 496tier 14. I would maintain my T14 2pc (Head and Shoulders) and have 522 pieces for my Chest, Hands and Legs. Let's get some discussion going here, I would love to see some opinions. Thanks.

  11. #11
    More than likely Gameday it would be an upgrade. The only way to verify, though, would be by testing and/or Sim'ing the gear.

    Personally, I dropped 4pc t14 (496) for two 522 items and saw a dps increase versus maintaining the 4pc (it wasn't huge, probably within about 1k dps, but enough to warrant dropping it.)

  12. #12
    I was personally in the same position as you, Gameday, a couple of weeks ago. I had 522 chest/hands and 528 legs (all offpieces) and was replacing lfr t14 legs and normal gloves/chest. Simming the 2 comparisons, with all 3 off pieces was only 100 or so dps more than keeping chest/gloves t14. I figured that the t14 would therefore be better, as you can stack censure on multi targets and make use of the glyph of double jeopardy for increased effect from t14 4pc. Once i got t15 2pc, however (normal chest/lfr gloves) i swapped them in instead of the offpieces.

  13. #13
    The question has been covered on Askmrrobot's forums. Here's a post from Revulva on it:

    Set bonuses can be really tricky to estimate in such a way that we actually hit that threshold where breaking set bonuses is worth it or not... I ran some tests on this, and It does seem that using the T15 2 piece is better. (Although it isn't drastically better, so at least we were in the right ballpark.) I will work on tweaking the set bonus estimates so that we are making a better recommendation in this case.
    Apparently it should be fixed in the next update, and whether your t14 is upgraded normal/heroic presumably enters into it substantially too.

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